# If abortion is outlawed, what should the penalty be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117 "2014-10-22T06:31:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/1 "2014-10-22T06:31:23Z")
If it’s against the law, there has to be a penalty attached. So what should it be? Women have been [executed](http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/03/us/arkansas-executes-a-woman-who-killed-both-her-children.html) for killing their children. Shouldn’t the penalty for a woman who successfully aborts her fetus be the exact same, up to and including execution by the state? ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/2 "2014-10-22T06:52:00Z")
[Previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=362373). I believe there was a more recent one as well. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/3 "2014-10-22T06:55:48Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > [Previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=362373). I believe there was a more recent one as well. 8 years is probably a long enough gap between threads. ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/4 "2014-10-22T07:04:20Z")
OK, [here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=725814) the one from IMHO I had in mind. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/5 "2014-10-22T07:11:23Z")
Well, we don’t have to speculate in a vacuum here. We can look at what the penalties actually were, when abortion was outlawed. Having said that, I don’t know what they were. But it’s a question with a factual answer. My impression is that the laws concerned were not so much directed at criminalising and sentencing women who had abortions, but rather at criminalising practitioners who administered abortions. The offence wasn’t murder; it was administering an abortion, or something similar, and the penalies were less than for murder. Of course there was the theoretical possiblity that a women who had an abortion could be charged and convicted as an accessory to the principal offence, which was administering the abortion, but I suspect that didn’t happen so much. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/6 "2014-10-22T07:55:50Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, we don’t have to speculate in a vacuum here. We can look at what the penalties actually were, when abortion was outlawed. > > Having said that, I don’t know what they were. But it’s a question with a factual answer. Or since that was in the past, we can look at the penalties that the anti-abortionists are imposing on women right now for miscarriage and stillbirths both [here](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges) and in [other countries](http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/apr/17/beatriz-case-resistance-el-salvador-abortion-law). So; we can expect them to face murder charges and extensive jail time. Or in America death in some cases I expect, given its enthusiasm for the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/7 "2014-10-22T12:54:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or since that was in the past, we can look at the penalties that the anti-abortionists are imposing on women right now for miscarriage and stillbirths both [here](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jun/24/america-pregnant-women-murder-charges) and in [other countries](http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/apr/17/beatriz-case-resistance-el-salvador-abortion-law). How did anti-abortionists force this woman to ingest cocaine and rat poison? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/8 "2014-10-22T13:05:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How did anti-abortionists force this woman to ingest cocaine and rat poison? She was charged for murdering her baby. That seems a little excessive for a suicidal drug abuser. You also ignored the second link, which said nothing about any drugs or poison. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/9 "2014-10-22T13:17:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How did anti-abortionists force this woman to ingest cocaine and rat poison? Took her to lunch at Arby’s? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/10 "2014-10-22T16:29:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She was charged for murdering her baby. That seems a little excessive for a suicidal drug abuser. One woman was charged with attempted suicide and murder, and the other with abusing cocaine. Both involved cases where the fetus was considered viable - 36 and 33 weeks into pregnancy. Keeping in mind the changes in the cocaine case were dismissed, and the rat poison case pleaded to a misdemeanor of reckless endangerment. The issue being that **Der Trihs** significantly misrepresented the conditions (of course). These were not simple stillbirths or miscarriages. Unless you are eager to fight for the right of women to swallow rat poison or abuse illegal drugs while pregnant. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/11 "2014-10-22T16:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > If it’s against the law, there has to be a penalty attached. So what should it be? I doubt there would be many penalties for the women involved, since it might be difficult to prove, and juries aren’t going to be disposed to throwing some young girl under the bus for doing something like having an abortion, law or no law. For the person performing the abortion there would probably be a jail sentence if convicted, I suppose. No idea what it would be since it’s highly unlikely, in the extreme, that abortion will ever be illegal in the US again. > [@](#): > > Women have been executed for killing their children. Shouldn’t the penalty for a woman who successfully aborts her fetus be the exact same, up to and including execution by the state? She ASKED for the death penalty, since in addition to killing her 5 and 2 year old children she also tried to kill herself, so she certainly had issues. No, I doubt outside of some fundamentalist nightmare voluntary abortion would ever carry a sentence of death. It’s a ridiculous notion when you look at the difficulties in carrying out the death penalty is in the US for folks who aren’t going to get even a little sympathy from a jury, let alone a woman who simply had an abortion. I realize you are fishing for rabid conservative pro-lifer types, or for an echo chamber in pro-choicers (which I’m one of), but you should at least try and keep it real. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/12 "2014-10-22T16:47:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > These were not simple stillbirths or miscarriages. What’s a “simple” stillbirth or miscarriage? > [@](#): > > Unless you are eager to fight for the right of women to swallow rat poison or abuse illegal drugs while pregnant. I do not believe pregnant women should be treated any differently than non-pregnant women by the law, in these cases or any other. I believe that what’s going on inside her body, even if it’s another person in there, is no one’s business but her own. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/13 "2014-10-22T16:55:44Z")
30 days or $30. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/14 "2014-10-22T17:02:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What’s a “simple” stillbirth or miscarriage? In this context it is one not brought about by the intentional ingestion of rat poison or illegal drugs. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/15 "2014-10-22T17:19:08Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I doubt there would be many penalties for the women involved, since it might be difficult to prove, and juries aren’t going to be disposed to throwing some young girl under the bus for doing something like having an abortion, law or no law. For the person performing the abortion there would probably be a jail sentence if convicted, I suppose. No idea what it would be since it’s highly unlikely, in the extreme, that abortion will ever be illegal in the US again. > > She ASKED for the death penalty, since in addition to killing her 5 and 2 year old children she also tried to kill herself, so she certainly had issues. No, I doubt outside of some fundamentalist nightmare voluntary abortion would ever carry a sentence of death. It’s a ridiculous notion when you look at the difficulties in carrying out the death penalty is in the US for folks who aren’t going to get even a little sympathy from a jury, let alone a woman who simply had an abortion. I realize you are fishing for rabid conservative pro-lifer types, or for an echo chamber in pro-choicers (which I’m one of), but you should at least try and keep it real. Don’t think ot matters whether she asked for it or not. If the law says she can be executed, she might be whether or not she asks for it. If the law says she can’t be executed, then she won’t be whether she asks for it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/16 "2014-10-22T17:21:39Z")
What’s the penalty for infanticide in the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Doctor\_Why\_Bother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Why_Bother)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/17 "2014-10-22T17:37:45Z")
A $10.00 Amazon book token, as gratitude for freeing up more parking spaces for the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/18 "2014-10-22T20:09:06Z")
For a woman who procures an illegal abortion, a year in a forced labor camp. For the doctor, two years. For pro-choice politicians and activists, a range of penalties up to (in extreme cases) execution. ---
**Author:** ![BigDadWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@BigDadWolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigDadWolf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/19 "2014-10-22T20:16:56Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > For a woman who procures an illegal abortion, a year in a forced labor camp. For the doctor, two years. For pro-choice politicians and activists, a range of penalties up to (in extreme cases) execution. I really cannot tell whether you are serious or this is a swoosh. Why would people who advocate for the pro-choice position in a free society be punished at all much less with death? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/20 "2014-10-22T20:38:08Z")
> [@BigDadWolf](#): > > I really cannot tell whether you are serious or this is a swoosh. Why would people who advocate for the pro-choice position in a free society be punished at all much less with death? For giving people _ideas_, of course. Evil wicked sinful ideas. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117.md?page=2)