# If abortion is outlawed, what should the penalty be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117 "2014-10-22T06:31:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/21 "2014-10-22T22:00:52Z")
It occurs to me that I misspoke: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > For giving people _ideas_, of course. Evil wicked sinful ideas. Women aren’t people. They’be be contented happy sheep as God intended, except for the dirty sinners putting evil wicked sinful ideas in their otherwise empty heads. Stone them! Stone the idea-sharers, that is. Keep the women because we’ll need them to keep having babies and stuff, as long as nobody gives them any ideas. Ideas… brrrrr… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/22 "2014-10-22T22:17:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What’s the penalty for infanticide in the USA? Define infant. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/23 "2014-10-22T22:19:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It occurs to me that I misspoke: > Women aren’t people. They’be be contented happy sheep as God intended, except for the dirty sinners putting evil wicked sinful ideas in their otherwise empty heads. Stone them! > Stone the idea-sharers, that is. Keep the women because we’ll need them to keep having babies and stuff, as long as nobody gives them any ideas. > Ideas… brrrrr… Yes, sow crates are clearly the only answer. Actually, nobody should be giving _men_ ideas, either. So put them in the sow crates, too. Or would it be boar crates? Just the elite need to be out and about and having ideas, is what I’m saying. > [@kayaker](#): > > 30 days or $30. For some reason the tone of this struck me as being just perfect, as commentary on the thread question. (Yes, I laughed out loud.:)) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/24 "2014-10-22T22:20:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Don’t think ot matters whether she asked for it or not. If the law says she can be executed, she might be whether or not she asks for it. If the law says she can’t be executed, then she won’t be whether she asks for it or not. Which has nothing to do with my point. It matters because if she requested the death penalty that probably means she waived the requisite number of appeals. Certainly if she lived in a state with no death penalty she wouldn’t have gotten it regardless, but even living in a state with the death penalty there is a lot of hoops you have to jump through before you can be executed…unless you waive them of course. Regardless, there is pretty much zero chance that, even if scary liberal nightmare America happens down the road, a woman getting an abortion would ever be given a death sentence. Zero chance. Trotting out a one off and bizarre example of a women executed for killing her young children and wanting the death penalty doesn’t change that, and really only poisons the well for a real discussion. Like I said…keep it real if you want to have a real discussion. YMMV of course. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/25 "2014-10-22T22:20:50Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > For a woman who procures an illegal abortion, a year in a forced labor camp. For the doctor, two years. For pro-choice politicians and activists, a range of penalties up to (in extreme cases) execution. What’s the penalty for advocating goofy punishments? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/26 "2014-10-22T22:42:50Z")
A writer for National Review thinks they should be hanged. [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/nation-review-hack-wants-to-hang-women-who-abort-because-sanctity-of-life/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/nation-review-hack-wants-to-hang-women-who-abort-because-sanctity-of-life/) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/27 "2014-10-22T22:55:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Define infant. Someone who’s been born. Between the age of 1 second and, say, 1 year. (After that, more toddler than infant.) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/28 "2014-10-22T22:56:29Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > A writer for National Review thinks they should be hanged. > [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/nation-review-hack-wants-to-hang-women-who-abort-because-sanctity-of-life/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/nation-review-hack-wants-to-hang-women-who-abort-because-sanctity-of-life/) That guy isn’t indicative of conservative thinking! Why Hector, just a few posts above, only wanted slave labor. That’s way nicer than hanging! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/29 "2014-10-22T23:32:26Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > What’s the penalty for advocating goofy punishments? The Comfy Chair. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/30 "2014-10-22T23:48:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > For a woman who procures an illegal abortion, a year in a forced labor camp. I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/31 "2014-10-23T00:20:56Z")
If human life begins at conception, then getting an abortion should carry the same penalty as murdering your infant child – either a long prison sentence or possibly execution. It’s hard to see how the pro-life position admits any other possibility. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/32 "2014-10-23T00:40:00Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > A writer for National Review thinks they should be hanged. > [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/nation-review-hack-wants-to-hang-women-who-abort-because-sanctity-of-life/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/nation-review-hack-wants-to-hang-women-who-abort-because-sanctity-of-life/) He stole that idea from _The Handmaid’s Tale_. Hang the plagiarist! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/33 "2014-10-23T01:33:40Z")
Depends on the stage of abortion. I think doctors who commit abortions pre-viability should have their licenses suspended or other punishments of those nature, while those who commit abortion after viability should be treated like any other murderer. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/34 "2014-10-23T05:38:44Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Depends on the stage of abortion. I think doctors who commit abortions pre-viability should have their licenses suspended or other punishments of those nature, while those who commit abortion after viability should be treated like any other murderer. We’re not asking about doctors. Since there are not roving bands of abortionists holding pregnant women down and aborting their fetuses against their wishes, there is a woman involved who has allowed the procedure to occur. Or, in a world where doctors who perform illegal abortions are treated as you suggest, there will be far less of them to do the procedure, women will simply take matters into their own hands, as Dr. Waldo Fielding, a retired gynecologist, wrote in the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html?_r=2&) in 2008: > [@](#): > > I saw and treated almost every complication of illegal abortion that one could conjure, done either by the patient herself or by an abortionist — often unknowing, unskilled and probably uncaring. > > This, too, was clear: Her desperate need to terminate a pregnancy was the driving force behind the selection of any method available. > > The familiar symbol of illegal abortion is the infamous “coat hanger” — which may be the symbol, but is in no way a myth. In my years in New York, several women arrived with a hanger still in place. Whoever put it in — perhaps the patient herself — found it trapped in the cervix and could not remove it. > > However, not simply coat hangers were used. > > Almost any implement you can imagine had been and was used to start an abortion — darning needles, crochet hooks, cut-glass salt shakers, soda bottles, sometimes intact, sometimes with the top broken off. > > Another method that I did not encounter, but heard about from colleagues in other hospitals, was a soap solution forced through the cervical canal with a syringe. This could cause almost immediate death if a bubble in the solution entered a blood vessel and was transported to the heart. > > The worst case I saw, and one I hope no one else will ever have to face, was that of a nurse who was admitted with what looked like a partly delivered umbilical cord. Yet as soon as we examined her, we realized that what we thought was the cord was in fact part of her intestine, which had been hooked and torn by whatever implement had been used in the abortion. It took six hours of surgery to remove the infected uterus and ovaries and repair the part of the bowel that was still functional. So what are we charging these women for, the ones with bloody coat hangers still stuck inside of them, the ones who did this to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/35 "2014-10-23T11:34:35Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So what are we charging these women for, the ones with bloody coat hangers still stuck inside of them, the ones who did this to themselves. Do they even _make_ wire coat hangers anymore? Between Joan Crawford and the discovery of plastic, I thought they were a thing of the past. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/36 "2014-10-23T11:40:25Z")
Raising children. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/37 "2014-10-23T11:44:18Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Raising children. Ninjaed! (I was going to say, a baby.) ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/38 "2014-10-23T17:23:58Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Depends on the stage of abortion. I think doctors who commit abortions pre-viability should have their licenses suspended or other punishments of those nature, while those who commit abortion after viability should be treated like any other murderer. What if the fetus may be technically viable but also has severe defects or deformities that will cause it to die, painfully, not long after birth? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/39 "2014-10-23T17:36:31Z")
A hysterectomy since obviously they cannot be trusted with a uterus. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117/40 "2014-10-23T21:24:50Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > We’re not asking about doctors. Since there are not roving bands of abortionists holding pregnant women down and aborting their fetuses against their wishes, there is a woman involved who has allowed the procedure to occur. Should have read the OP more thoroughly. I think in general, pre-viability mothers should not be punished for abortions but those who do post-viability should be treated the same as those who commit infanticide. > [@](#): > > Or, in a world where doctors who perform illegal abortions are treated as you suggest, there will be far less of them to do the procedure, women will simply take matters into their own hands, as Dr. Waldo Fielding, a retired gynecologist, wrote in the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html?_r=2&) in 2008:So what are we charging these women for, the ones with bloody coat hangers still stuck inside of them, the ones who did this to themselves. While I don’t wish to discount the obvious dangers of abortions not by qualified physicians which in a consistent pro-life society should be prevented by universal access to contraception, sex education, and full support for both the mother and child, “coathanger” abortions it seems to me is in many ways the pro-choice equivalent of pro-life activists holding up signs and pictures of aborted fetuses-one that is a very strong emotional argument. The evidence as documented by the Straight Dope ([http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2510/before-em-roe-em-v-em-wade-em-did-10-000-women-a-year-die-from-illegal-abortions](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2510/before-em-roe-em-v-em-wade-em-did-10-000-women-a-year-die-from-illegal-abortions)), indicates that the number of women who died from illegal abortions pre-_Roe_ was extremely small (many if not most may very well have died even if abortion was legal) and this was over forty years ago before even further modern advances in medical technology. > [@vivalostwages](#): > > What if the fetus may be technically viable but also has severe defects or deformities that will cause it to die, painfully, not long after birth? I think if its an actual condition where the baby will not live long after birth (not say something like Down’s Syndrome) and be largely in pain, it is at the very least a mitigating factor that is not morally equivalent and something if it poses a risk to the mother in delivery where abortion is justified. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed-what-should-the-penalty-be/702117.md?page=3)