# If abortion is outlawed.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505 "2004-11-13T02:02:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DantesTenth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@DantesTenth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DantesTenth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/41 "2004-11-14T01:47:25Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Why? Because, as a person in it’s own right, it has rights beyond the its status of a chunk of whatever-you-want-to-call-it attached to, and dependant upon, the uterus in which it resides. Row v. Wade established that a non-viable (for easy legal determination, that was specified as the first two trimesters of pregnancy) was a part of the woman’s body, to keep or expel IN HER OWN JUDGEMENT. If a fetus is determined to be a ‘person’ from conception, then it has the same rights as any other person, and the owner of the uterus in which it resides must respect those rights. At least that is my conclusion; I am not a laywer (Grace of Whatever!), much less one qualified to judge in the extremely rarified atmosphere in which such matters are decided - SCOTUS. I strongly suggest that those who have never lived before RvW study up REAL fast on the coming nightmare - the NE coast and CA are the only places where there would be sufficient opposition to criminalization to ensure it not be enacted. The “Great Heartland of America”, let alone the former conferderate states, MO, IA, MN, WY, UT, ID, AZ would all be back to 5-7 years, loss of license, etc. - where I was 33 years ago. NM, NV, and CO are too close to call - they might just let their sense of independence keep them from running with the herd. Good luck, and make sure you always can get to one of the coasts quickly. If the yahoos in Congress (the House is a foregone conclusion, the Senate is getting scary, and the President, Born-Again drunk that he is, would sign in a heartbeat - and if the SCOTUS has already overturned Roe, that would be a foregone conclusion, enact a ban at the national level, make sure you are never more than a week away from Canada. Or, ask your grandmother - the old girls knew a few (highly dangerous) tricks in their day - your mother probably takes RvW as a given, and has never thought about it. Otherwise, no fertile woman would have voted for the current crop of bigots running the US government. Follow gay rights - they are now where pro-choice was before RvW, and are running into the same mindset we ran into. Vote accordingly - the bigots, assured of reversing Roe, are now ensuring that gays never have to RvW their kids will have to overturn. Short form: Wake up! ---
**Author:** ![DantesTenth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@DantesTenth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DantesTenth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/42 "2004-11-14T01:50:10Z")
make that: “…never have **a** RvW…” ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/43 "2004-11-14T01:56:06Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Originally Posted by **AHunter3** > > > [@](#): > > > > …the next step for them is to shut down access to birth control. > > > > A decision or law granting local municipalities and states the authority to deny access of unmarried or childless women to birth control if they see fit, all in the name of reducing Federalism of course, would probably do it. > > > > That and requiring a scrip for condoms > > That’s kind of far fetched. Most people who are against abortion on demand aren’t anti-birth control, they’d _rather_ people used it and didn’t create a fetus to dispose of. How many ultra religious people are there who also have the potential to become SC judges? I can’t imagine there are many. Oh, so I’m really “out ther”, am I? I just received this as the starting text of a petition: > [@](#): > > President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. The committee has not met for more than two years, during which time its charter lapsed. As a result, the Bush Administration is tasked with filling all eleven positions with new members. This position does not require Congressional approval. The FDA’s Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee makes crucial decisions on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology and related specialties, including hormone therapy, contraception, treatment for infertility, and medical alternatives to surgical procedures for sterilization and pregnancy termination. > > Dr. Hager, the author of “As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now.” The book blends biblical accounts of Christ healing Women with case studies from Hager’s practice. His views of reproductive health care are far outside the mainstream for reproductive technology. Dr. Hager is a practicing OB/GYN who describes himself as “pro-life” and refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/44 "2004-11-14T02:00:39Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **AHunter3** > > > > …the next step for them is to shut down access to birth control. > > > > A decision or law granting local municipalities and states the authority to deny access of unmarried or childless women to birth control if they see fit, all in the name of reducing Federalism of course, would probably do it. > > > > That and requiring a scrip for condoms > > That’s kind of far fetched. Most people who are against abortion on demand aren’t anti-birth control, they’d _rather_ people used it and didn’t create a fetus to dispose of. How many ultra religious people are there who also have the potential to become SC judges? I can’t imagine there are many. Oh, so I’m really “out there”, am I? I just received this as the starting text of a petition: > [@](#): > > President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. The committee has not met for more than two years, during which time its charter lapsed. As a result, the Bush Administration is tasked with filling all eleven positions with new members. This position does not require Congressional approval. The FDA’s Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee makes crucial decisions on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology and related specialties, including hormone therapy, contraception, treatment for infertility, and medical alternatives to surgical procedures for sterilization and pregnancy termination. > > Dr. Hager, the author of “As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now.” The book blends biblical accounts of Christ healing Women with case studies from Hager’s practice. His views of reproductive health care are far outside the mainstream for reproductive technology. Dr. Hager is a practicing OB/GYN who describes himself as “pro-life” and refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/45 "2004-11-14T02:05:07Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Oh, so I’m really “out there”, am I? I just received this as the starting text of a petition: {snip} Not that this is directly related to the subject, but that’s an old E-mail - it’s [already happened](http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/hager.asp). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/46 "2004-11-14T02:06:33Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > Not that this is directly related to the subject, but that’s an old E-mail - it’s [already happened](http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/hager.asp). The guy is up for _re_-appointment, however. Not that the petition makes that clear; it’s the same one from two years ago. And not that internet petitions make a damn bit of difference anyway. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/47 "2004-11-14T02:28:43Z")
Point is, yes it _is_ part of their agenda. ---
**Author:** ![mike1dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mike1dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mike1dog)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/48 "2004-11-14T02:51:23Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Point is, yes it _is_ part of their agenda. If you scroll down that [snopes cite](http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/hager.asp) , you’ll notice that he denies that he won’t prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/49 "2004-11-14T03:35:31Z")
> [@mike1dog](#): > > If you scroll down that [snopes cite](http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/hager.asp) , you’ll notice that he denies that he won’t prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. And in the very next sentence, Snopes notes that _Time_ magazine wrote “In his private practice, two sources familiar with it say, Hager refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women.” ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/50 "2004-11-14T05:48:56Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Well, murder (arguably the charge that would apply to abortion if it were made illegal) isn’t a Federal crime, and I don’t think there was ever a serious attempt to make it such. Federal crimes are listed in [Title 18, Part 1](http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I.html) of the U.S. Code. As far as I know, amending the US Code requires an act of Congress. For them to grab a controversial issue like abortion away from the states would cause considerable discontent. How did they manage to pass the partial birth abortion ban, then? To the best of my knowledge, that’s a federal law that bans at least some abortions. What would be different about a federal law that banned all abortions? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/51 "2004-11-14T05:54:32Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > How did they manage to pass the partial birth abortion ban, then? Congress can pass whatever they chose, the question is whether or not its enforceable. Judges in various parts of the country (I want to say in New York, California and Nebraska, I’m not sure on what circuits) have already delayed its implementation. I imagine this thing is headed for the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/52 "2004-11-14T06:06:50Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > How did they manage to pass the partial birth abortion ban, then? President Clinton vetoed a partial birth abortion law that passed Congress in 1996. On 28 June 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court, in _[Stenberg v. Carhart](http://laws.findlaw.com/us/000/99-830.html)_, affirmed a lower court’s finding against a Nebraska law banning partial birth abortions, and cited past decisions _Roe v. Wade_ and _Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey_. The [Partial-Birth Abortion Act of 2003](http://womensissues.about.com/cs/partialbirth/a/partialbirthact.htm) was signed by President Bush, but in September 2004 it was [struck down](http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a3S1LRdTpNVA&refer=top_world_news) by a federal judge in Nebraska as unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/53 "2004-11-14T06:07:49Z")
Thanks, **Walloon**. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/54 "2004-11-14T06:30:33Z")
> [@DantesTenth](#): > > I strongly suggest that those who have never lived before RvW study up REAL fast on the coming nightmare - the NE coast and CA are the only places where there would be sufficient opposition to criminalization to ensure it not be enacted. The “Great Heartland of America”, let alone the former conferderate states, MO, IA, MN, WY, UT, ID, AZ would all be back to 5-7 years, loss of license, etc. - where I was 33 years ago. NM, NV, and CO are too close to call - they might just let their sense of independence keep them from running with the herd. Sixteen states and the District of Columbia have never repealed restrictive abortion laws ruled unconstitutional by _Roe v. Wade_: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Delaware, District of Columbia, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/55 "2004-11-14T06:37:23Z")
Also, three states have laws declaring that if _Roe v. Wade_ is overturned, abortion is to be prohibited: Illinois, Kentucky, and Louisiana. ---
**Author:** ![DantesTenth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@DantesTenth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DantesTenth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/56 "2004-11-14T07:25:19Z")
Repealing unenforceable laws is an after-thought. That many have never gotten around to it is not alarming; others may search for the specific Act, but California, years ago, passed an affirmative law establishing the “Consenting adults” concept. From a legislative viewpoint, that was MUCH easier than trying to hunt down every prohibitive statute that had ever been enacted, and repeal each one. The affirmative statue precluded a determined prosecutor’s hunting down an obsure law and acting on its authority. The partial-birth law was a trial ballon - the proverbial camel’s nose under the tent - to see how much resistance there was to an outright ban. As long as Roe is the law of the land, any Federal court can declare it unconsitional, and thus null and unenforceable. Once Roe is declared unconstitutional (our old friends, the SCOTUS), the Federal District Courts (CA is in the Ninth circuit - a notoriously leftie bench (go, 9th!)), will not be able to block any ban, even at he state level - it then will become a state-by-state issue (as noted several times above) until abortion is banned by the Feds, at which time not even the States will be able to (legally) allow it to continue. (note: in SF, personal use of marijuana is, effectively, a “status” issue - it is enforced against minors, adults are not bothered unless they deal in high volume or do something stupid, like blow weed in a cop’s face, or did something else illegal, in which case the marijuana charge is tacked on. The classic (this was in Oakland, which keeps its over-extended narc unit busy with heroin and crack): A classic married yuppie couple (by definition, that is still a hetero couple, despite the CA State constitution’s blanket prohibition of any/all discrimination based on a person’s characteristics), both of whom were _ **Lawyers** _, had a home break-in burglary and called the cops - because they were white yuppies, the cops sent an officer around to take a statement at their home. Upon being invited in, he noticed small canabis plants all over the living room. These are lawyers, for whoever’s sake!. A search warrent was promptly issued based on the officer’s testimony, and executed. They conficated approx. 250 potted pot plants - it seems the couple grew these each year, and gave them to friends a Christmas. As I said, a true classic (as far as I know, the cops did not after the folks on their gift list). You do something like that and you will get busted - the smell of burning pot is still fairly common in the Haight, and “water pipes” are openly displayed in store windows (yes, for sale), even though CA has (last I heard - a so-called “paraphernalia” law). The DEA, OTOH, got a serious felony (read: hard time) conviction for a guy who grew pot (the jury was not allowed to learn that he provided it under the provisions “medicinal marijuana” law CA enacted to allow sale of pot to those who had obtained a DR.'s prescription). I consider that case to an large example of what’s wrong with the US trial system, YMMV. FTR, there is a discreet storefront a few blocks from me which quietly dispenses such pot. They been there almost a year now, and I know of no legal hassles for them. Maybe this and the weather is what makes CA so expensive, especially the large urban centers. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/57 "2004-11-14T07:26:07Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > The [Partial-Birth Abortion Act of 2003](http://womensissues.about.com/cs/partialbirth/a/partialbirthact.htm) was signed by President Bush, but in September 2004 it was [struck down](http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a3S1LRdTpNVA&refer=top_world_news) by a federal judge in Nebraska as unconstitutional. On what grounds (I can’t accsess your link). If its struck down because of previous findings based on _Roe v. Wade_, and that case is overturned by a new SCOTUS, then presumably similar laws passed by congress will stand. If it’s struck down because its found that banning abortions is outside the powers of congress and something that needs to be left to the states, independent of _Roe v. Wade_, then I can rest easy that congress won’t be able to illegalize abortion across the US, and that the worst case scenario is that it will be illegalized in some states. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/58 "2004-11-14T07:38:04Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > On what grounds (I can’t accsess your link). \*Sept. 8 (Bloomberg) – A federal judge in Nebraska struck down a U.S. law that makes performing certain late-term abortions a crime, becoming the third judge to rule the measure unconstitutionally fails to protect the health of the mother. "I declare the ‘Partial Birth Abortion Act of 2003’ unconstitutional because it does not allow, and instead prohibits, the use of the procedure when necessary to preserve the health of a woman,’’ Judge Richard Kopf wrote in his 474-page opinion.\* I’d say that’s closer to the first reason you gave. ---
**Author:** ![sperfur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@sperfur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sperfur)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/60 "2004-11-14T11:32:22Z")
> [@DantesTenth](#): > > So am I, actually :smack: - that was an incomplete sentence topeed by giiberish that I had over done, but in insert mode, not overwrite. I neglected to delete the ending pile-up of typos. I figured you’d gotten so angry you’d melted. I know I was boiling mad by the end of your post. (Not that I wasn’t angry about this situation before.) > [@DantesTenth](#): > > Something about quinine water and a hot bath - anyone else hear of that ‘home remedy’?, or is my mind up to its usual tricks? I don’t know about the hot bath part, but I’ve been told about quinine. Sometimes I look for it at pharmacies, just to see if they carry it. Every time I think to look for it, it is there. You see, quinine is a treatment for malaria. Who gets malaria in mid-Missouri? Yet every pharmacy around here seems to carry it. I forsee home remedy abortion websites becoming a very popular search on google if RvW is overturned. ---
**Author:** ![sperfur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@sperfur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sperfur)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505/61 "2004-11-14T11:36:35Z")
One more thing, **DantesTenth**. Allow me to thank you for putting your ass on the line to help women with no legal control over their own bodies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abortion-is-outlawed/274505.md?page=4)