# If Abraham Lincoln Had Never Been Assassinated. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334 "2017-02-08T16:35:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/21 "2017-02-14T05:41:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Lincoln’s legacy would tarnished with scandal. From his imprisonment of thousands of dissidents, his arrest of a member of congress, and his consideration of the arrest of Justice Taney, to his crony railroad deals, support of the Illinois Black Codes and Corwin amendment, and refusal to negotiate a peaceful secession, Lincoln was a pretty rotten guy. Not a guy you’d build a temple to for tourists to warble hosannas at his feet. Preaching from [the works of Thomas DiLorenzo](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/17/the-rancid-abraham-lincoln-haters-of-the-libertarian-right.html)… > [@](#): > > When John Wilkes Booth jumped from the balcony at Ford’s Theatre after shooting President Lincoln, he famously shouted, “Sic semper tyrannis.” There’s an element of the contemporary right that may disagree with the assassin’s method, but certainly agrees with his sentiment. > > It is the Lincoln-Hating Right. You can’t belong unless you feel a compulsion to write “bloody-minded tyrant” immediately before or after the name “Abraham Lincoln.” Some members of this fraternity are old-style Lost Cause romantics, deluding themselves about the “War for Southern Independence,” as some Southerners have been doing since about 1866, while others are a peculiar breed of libertarian… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/22 "2017-02-14T06:58:05Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Also, also, “crony railroad deals”? I’ve looked up quite a bit of history, and still can’t figure out what you mean here. I’m just guessing here but I think Will might be referring to Lincoln’s legal career before he entered politics. Lincoln was a successful business lawyer and had represented railroad companies. But as far as I know, he never gave preferential treatment as President to any railroad business he had been associated with. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/23 "2017-02-14T07:00:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > refusal to negotiate a peaceful secession Good for him. Lincoln was right. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/24 "2017-02-14T10:12:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Good for him. Lincoln was right. This reminds me of the infamous declaration by Madeline Albright that the tens of thousands of Iraqi children who died as a result of Clinton-era sanctions was “worth it”. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/25 "2017-02-14T13:39:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This reminds me of the infamous declaration by Madeline Albright that the tens of thousands of Iraqi children who died as a result of Clinton-era sanctions was “worth it”. I don’t consider the situations identical. Also, you really need to drop that “compassion” act. It’s doesn’t suit you. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/26 "2017-02-14T16:00:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This reminds me of the infamous declaration by Madeline Albright that the tens of thousands of Iraqi children who died as a result of Clinton-era sanctions was “worth it”. So as a libertarian, you’re saying a peaceful secession would have been worth leaving millions of people in chains? That’s odd. I would have thought stopping slavery would be one of the things a libertarian would accept as a proper function of government. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/27 "2017-02-14T17:12:38Z")
If I am not mistaken Will advocates the (preposterous) idea that the Union could have bought all the slaves. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/28 "2017-02-14T18:42:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Washington wasn’t assassinated but he’s adored. > > It is difficult to envision how Lincoln would not have been a better President than Andrew Johnson was, and his legend was effectively already written by the time he died; everything else would have been icing. Reconstruction, which was not the horrible imposition on the South the apologists would have you believe, would have been more quickly and effectively implemented. I’ve no doubt at all he’d be revered today. Yes. Lincoln would not have the added cachet of being a martyr, but still up there with Teddy, George, Thomas, etc. I still think he’d be on Mt Rushmore. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/29 "2017-02-14T18:58:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Lincoln’s legacy would tarnished with scandal. From his imprisonment of thousands of dissidents, his arrest of a member of congress, and his consideration of the arrest of Justice Taney, to his crony railroad deals, support of the Illinois Black Codes and Corwin amendment, and refusal to negotiate a peaceful secession, Lincoln was a pretty rotten guy. Not a guy you’d build a temple to for tourists to warble hosannas at his feet. The Taney issue , the thing that never happened?:dubious::rolleyes: > **[Taney Arrest Warrant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant)** > > The Taney Arrest Warrant is a conjectural controversy in Abraham Lincoln scholarship. The argument is that in late May or early June 1861, President Lincoln secretly ordered an arrest warrant for Roger B. Taney, the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, but abandoned the proposal. The arrest order is said to have been in response to Taney's Circuit Judge ruling in Ex parte Merryman, which found Lincoln's suspension of the writ of habeas corpus to be unconstitutional. > As historian Br... And Lincoln didnt _support_ the Corwin amendment, he simply didnt oppose it, hoping it would stave off secession. Of course Lincolns refusal to negotiate a peaceful secession was one of his greatest acts, ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/30 "2017-02-14T19:15:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This reminds me of the infamous declaration by Madeline Albright that the tens of thousands of Iraqi children who died as a result of Clinton-era sanctions was “worth it”. Your disapproval doesn’t cause me any concern. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/31 "2017-02-14T20:26:00Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I don’t consider the situations identical. > > Also, you really need to drop that “compassion” act. It’s doesn’t suit you. I don’t consider the situations identical either, but such ridiculous pronouncements from two people who lost nothing about situations where many people lost so much do seem a bit tasteless. > [@CarnalK](#): > > So as a libertarian, you’re saying a peaceful secession would have been worth leaving millions of people in chains? That’s odd. I would have thought stopping slavery would be one of the things a libertarian would accept as a proper function of government. Peaceful secession would have led to abolition. See Brazilian quilombos. > [@RickJay](#): > > If I am not mistaken Will advocates the (preposterous) idea that the Union could have bought all the slaves. You’re mistaken. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The Taney issue , the thing that never happened?:dubious::rolleyes: > [Taney Arrest Warrant - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant) > > And Lincoln didnt _support_ the Corwin amendment, he simply didnt oppose it, hoping it would stave off secession. > > Of course Lincolns refusal to negotiate a peaceful secession was one of his greatest acts, Remember, his refusal to negotiate a peaceful secession led to great death, military occupation, and lingering resentment and violence toward Blacks. Lincoln had “no objection” to making the Corwin amendment “express and irrevocable” and also sent a letter the governors of the states making them aware of the amendment. I’ll dig up the stuff on the Taney situation. The “issue” definitely happened according to 3 sources, though there doesn’t seem to be evidence that the warrant was ever issued. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Your disapproval doesn’t cause me any concern. I recognize the things that don’t cause you concern, they wouldn’t cause concern to Madeline Albright either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/32 "2017-02-14T20:36:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Peaceful secession would have led to abolition. So you say. Somehow I don’t find your assertion convincing, considering the actions of so many Southern whites for the century following the Civil War. I think it’s possible a successful secession would have led to an attempted genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/33 "2017-02-14T20:43:50Z")
There would be a CVS (or equivalent) where Ford’s Theater currently stands. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/34 "2017-02-14T22:44:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Peaceful secession would have led to abolition. See Brazilian quilombos. Umm, what? Abolition would probably eventually have happened but it sure as hell wouldn’t be because the South was peacefully allowed to form a country with slavery written into their constitution. The notion is ridiculous and citing the existence escaped slave communities in Brazil as evidence of that notion is frankly bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/35 "2017-02-14T23:01:56Z")
Yes, referencing a contemporary abolition and suggesting similarity is bizarre. That’s because the US is the Exceptional Nation. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/36 "2017-02-14T23:04:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you say. Somehow I don’t find your assertion convincing, considering the actions of so many Southern whites for the century following the Civil War. I think it’s possible a successful secession would have led to an attempted genocide. Where did something like that happen? What is the logic behind this bit of science fiction? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/37 "2017-02-14T23:10:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes, referencing a contemporary abolition and suggesting similarity is bizarre. That’s because the US is the Exceptional Nation. Then maybe you should have said "see Brazilian abolition " rather than referencing escaped slave settlements that were around hundreds of years before abolition and were usually attacked and destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/38 "2017-02-14T23:42:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Then maybe you should have said "see Brazilian abolition " rather than referencing escaped slave settlements that were around hundreds of years before abolition and were usually attacked and destroyed. Bizarrely, many abolitionists thought Northern secession would have been helpful to their cause. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/39 "2017-02-14T23:53:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Where did something like that happen? What is the logic behind this bit of science fiction? There have been numerous genocides and attempted genocides through human history. Considering the popularity of the KKK in the decades after the Civil War, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility that a large number of white Southerners either would have tolerated or actively supported an attempted genocide of black people, had slavery survived (and subsequently rebelled with material support from Northerners and abolitionist). ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334/40 "2017-02-14T23:59:18Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes, referencing a contemporary abolition and suggesting similarity is bizarre. That’s because the US is the Exceptional Nation. More like the CSA would have been an Exceptional Nation. What with having been explicitly founded on the principles of white supremacy and black slavery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-abraham-lincoln-had-never-been-assassinated/779334.md?page=3)