# If alcohol (for consumption) were discovered only recently, wouldn't it be classified an illegal drug? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2022, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215 "2022-01-22T07:04:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/42 "2022-01-28T20:03:23Z")
Sure, when you phrase it like that… Of course, our society likes to teach that ANY mind-alteration (outside of caffeine, which is also a drug AND can foster a mild physical dependence) is a Bad Thing. I disagree. It can be a bad thing, but is not inherently so. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/43 "2022-01-28T20:19:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Of course, our society likes to teach that ANY mind-alteration (outside of caffeine, which is also a drug AND can foster a mild physical dependence) is a Bad Thing. I disagree. It can be a bad thing, but is not inherently so. This is not at all what I’m arguing, if there’s any misunderstanding about that. In fact, that stigma you mentioned is a big part of the problem. It’s not socially acceptable to say “I’d like to consume a drug to alter my consciousness.” It is acceptable to say “I like wine because of the nuanced flavors and the rarity of the vintage and the fanciness of the bar.” People are lying to themselves telling them that it’s not a drug-seeking behavior. When their usage escalates and they suddenly start experiencing the dangerous consequences of drug use, they’re not alert to the problem because in their mind, they’re not drug users. They just really like rotten grapes that taste like oak and shoe leather. If people understood right out of the gate that “this is a drug and it’s going to make me love it”, I feel like they’d be able to enjoy things more safely. Just because dopamine makes me enjoy beer, doesn’t mean the enjoyment is fake or wrong. You just need to be clear about exactly what’s going on. I wish I had, I miss beer. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/44 "2022-01-30T23:39:44Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Most people hate alcohol the first time they drink it, unless it’s mixed with something that hides the flavor. The ethanol itself burns, wine tastes like rotten fruit, beer is reminiscent of raw bread dough… until the body learns “this is how you get pleasant jolts to your receptors for dopamine, opiods, and NMDA.” Then the conscious mind decides hey, rotten fruit can be pretty good. Is it possible this point of view regarding flavor is based on a modern palette and that ancient people may have been accustomed to different flavor profiles? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2022, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/45 "2022-01-30T23:56:09Z")
also, today’s booze is stronger than what they knew up to the 1800s, and most classical and medieval beer and wines would be considered " wino swill" these days ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/46 "2022-01-31T02:37:32Z")
My guess is that ethyl alcohol would be treated like diethyl ether: something not good for you that people abuse, that’s restricted but because of its legitimate uses not absolutely banned. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/47 "2022-01-31T04:40:04Z")
One other fun perspective on the “nope” side: I once attended a presentation on prenatal drug exposure by Dr. Astrid Heger, a pedriatrician who led the charge for comprehensive medical exams of children referred to child protective services in LA County. She said that what the research has shown, as well as her own personal observations have led her to believe, is that prenatal exposure to illegal drugs is usually at least fixable through early intervention services. But fetal alcohol syndrome is devastating. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/48 "2022-01-31T08:48:56Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > One difference is that there are lots of people who partake of alcoholic drinks because they like the taste, and not because of alcohol’s effect on them. This is not the case with any “illegal recreational drugs” that I know of. I would guess that you have never done coke. The “taste” may be the most appealing part of if. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/49 "2022-01-31T13:21:40Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > fetal alcohol syndrome is devastating. So many of my patients (all convicted felons) have the classic facial features of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. It’s frightening. [fetal alcohol syndrome facial features](https://scontent.feau1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/11265577_472495696240405_9209372725363786168_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=9267fe&_nc_ohc=NmZKj2vxabkAX-9e3QD&_nc_ht=scontent.feau1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9P5tO64jPug7YpDJ6zI2XDO6xMGACJCoWMPwpDjnBLpg&oe=621DC2F5) ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/50 "2022-01-31T16:34:11Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Is it possible this point of view regarding flavor is based on a modern palette and that ancient people may have been accustomed to different flavor profiles? I’d say that’s very unlikely; it seems much of modern people’s dietary choices and difficulties come from our still having that ancient palette that makes us crave those high-energy calories (fats, sugar, etc) that were harder to come by in the bad old days. And, why would ancient people have been more drawn to the taste of poison than they are now? Alcohol was just as dangerous back then than it is today. It’s probably a good thing our ancestors weren’t drawn to eat huge amounts of rotting fruit and other putrid substances. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/51 "2022-01-31T17:49:51Z")
The thing is, it’s not just humans that consume alcohol in fermented food - elephants, horses, and parrots are three other species I know of that will happily consume foods/beverages containing beer/wine/cider levels of alcohol. I’d be surprised if our cousins the great apes don’t likewise indulge if given the opportunity. Probably others. If it’s an acquired taste it’s a very, very easily acquired one. Presumably, it can’t be all bad, even on initial taste, for a substantial portion of the animal kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2022, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/52 "2022-02-01T00:38:19Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’d be surprised if our cousins the great apes don’t likewise indulge if given the opportunity Googling for an answer led me to the [DRUNKEN MONKEY HYPOTHESIS](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_monkey_hypothesis), which posits that our tolerance to alcohol dates back to early humans’ consuming fruit that had naturally fermented. If true, it suggests a long-standing relationship between people and our “booze” that predates even civilization itself. > [@](#): > > Around 10 million years ago, as our ape ancestors progressively became more upright and began to walk about bipedally, an interesting change occurred in their physiological ability to process alcohol. Based on DNA sequence data and modern-day reconstruction of ancestral enzymes, we now know that the ability of these early apes to metabolize alcohol increased about 20-fold due to a single-point mutation in their genes, consistent with greater dietary exposure to this molecule. These animals were walking about the forest floor and within savannahs, and might have simply been obtaining greater access to fallen fruits that had been fermenting longer, and thus that contained more alcohol. Whatever the initial advantages might have been for this particular mutation, we have retained it into modern times. What once helped to find food more efficiently in the wild has become a major part of human culture, with alcohol both loved and abused worldwide. > **[How the Drunken Monkey Hypothesis Explains Our Taste for Liquor](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/12/drunken-monkey/511046/)** > > Early apes’ ability to metabolize alcohol increased about 20-fold due to a single-point mutation in their genes. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/53 "2022-02-08T00:44:33Z")
But again how do you account for people like Broomstick and myself. I have acquired a taste for wine and mixed drinks (still can’t stand beer) despite the fact that I have never been drunk in my life and have only had a buzz maybe 5-10 times in my life, all after I had acquired my taste, and none of which I found particularly pleasant (generally more of a “huh, this is weird” experience). There are a large panoply of flavors that people find are initially unpleasant but over time out pallet grows to accept or crave. What is it about alcohol that prevents it from being one of those tastes? Note that I’m not saying that you aren’t right in many (probably most) cases but making a blanket generalization about personal tastes is probably asking for trouble. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/54 "2022-02-08T01:30:54Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > But again how do you account for people like Broomstick and myself. I have acquired a taste for wine and mixed drinks (still can’t stand beer) despite the fact that I have never been drunk in my life and have only had a buzz maybe 5-10 times in my life Getting drunk or buzzed isn’t a requirement to have the drug shape your habits. It’s still in your system, it’s still lighting up the nerve clusters that say “this was a good idea” even if you don’t consciously feel it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2022, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215/55 "2022-02-10T15:19:06Z")
You could say the exact same thing about sugar, fat, salt, and a lot of other things we consume on a regular basis. Or hot peppers. And so on. Clearly, humans (along with other animals) are “wired” to consume substances that are not entirely healthy, or that in large amounts may have detrimental effects. Back when we were hunter-gatherers this probably didn’t matter - we didn’t have distillation, or production of large quantities of anything psycho-active. In the modern world when we can refine the active substances to extremely high levels of purity it can be a problem. The extent that it will be a problem has multiple factors, from heredity to social cues to family habits/practices to probably a dozen other things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-alcohol-for-consumption-were-discovered-only-recently-wouldnt-it-be-classified-an-illegal-drug/958215.md?page=2)