# If America got rid of all racism . . . how much would really change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204 "2004-03-14T06:22:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/21 "2004-03-20T06:24:18Z")
WAGging along here, I’d say that there would be quite a bit of change, but the majority of people in the USA wouldn’t notice it. I’ve never suffered from racism, because I “pass”. My father, on the other hand, has been assaulted, followed, given “the stare”, etc., all because his eyes are the “wrong” shape and his skin the “wrong” color as far as some people are concerned. It was worst when the auto plants were getting closed down left and right in the Rust Belt, but it was there before and afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/22 "2004-03-20T18:18:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s hear from some affluent, middle-class African-Americans on this thread. How does white racism affect your life? I’m not affluent, but I’ll bite. I have no idea. Racism is pretty much a behind-the-scenes dealsky nowadays. I have a list of weird anecdotes that can be attributed to racism (like the time I first visited my undergraduate advisor and he dismissed me as a retard on atheletic scholarship) but nothing that is 100% proof of The Man Holding Me Down. I had a phone interview for a job just recently, and now the company wants to fly me out to see them in person. Nowhere on my resume is there a reference to my race (for all you anti-Affirmative Action freaks). I’d be lying if I told you I’m not worried about how they’ll respond to my appearance. I don’t look like your stereotypical ecologist. I’m optimistic and hopeful and all that, but the worry is there. Who will they be expecting to pick up at the airport? And when they see me, what kind of judgements and assumptions will be made? I’m know white people have to go through that worry too, but to a lesser degree. I am lucky, if I can say that. I was raised by middle-class parents, educated fairly well, and I am somewhat racially ambiguous, which means I look like every “non-white” ethnicity in the book. I _know_ my experiences would be different if my complexion was just a tad darker, my nose a little less keen, and my hair just smidget nappier. I also know that being a scrawny female helps. But I don’t know to what degree white racism has harmed my life, just like a white person doesn’t really know to what degree white priviledge has benefitted theirs. I don’t even think my parents–who were called dirty niggers to their faces and have experienced unequivocal instances of racial discrimination–could really quantify the impact. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/23 "2004-03-20T18:57:44Z")
Very little. Racism is just an extension of classism. Eliminating racism would just mean the racial distribution in each class would become more equal. What about class and technology? The technology is so complicated the rich don’t know what they are buying. We may develop new classes. Those that understand tech and those that don’t. Dal Timgar > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Lately I’ve started two GD threads on racism: > > “How much racism remains in white America?” > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=243699](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=243699) > > and > > “Defend white supremacy! I dare you!” > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244236](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244236) > > Which have elicited a lot of – to say the least – **interesting** participation. (Especially the latter.) But I still wonder whether these discussions are skirting the real problems. > > Racism, especially white-against-black racism, has been one of the most horrible and intractable social problems of American history. But suppose we got rid of it? Suppose, by some miracle, the hearts and minds of all Americans were cleansed overnight of all traces of racial prejudice, racial hatred, racial fear and suspicion? > > **How much would things really change?** > > Hate crimes would be a thing of the past. Hate groups would disband for lack of interest. Blacks would not longer have to worry about getting pulled over for no good reason. All improvements, no doubt. But what else? > > There’s no more racism. The semiliterate black kid from the projects, who applies for admisssion to a good college or goes to interview for a good job, now has roughly the same chance as the semiliterate white kid from the trailer park. Very good. **But how much of a chance is that?** > > Racism is still a problem. But it is not the only thing holding back millions of African-Americans from getting ahead in our society, **and it is no longer the most important thing.** If there’s no racism, blacks still have to live the legacy of past racism – a social system that still forces large numbers of them (not all, of course) into poverty and, even worse, effective isolation from the larger society around them. They grow up in inner-city neighborhoods where there is inadequate funding for schools, no good local jobs, and very few positive role models. That won’t change, just because their color no longer counts as a strike against them. > > The way I see it: > > 1. Some persisting problems of African-Americans are unique to their dysfunctional urban culture, and the best way to deal with them is to get them out of those neighborhoods – get them into other environments, a few families at a time. E.g., subsidized public housing for the poor is not a bad idea. But instead of a few huge projects concentrated in a few neighborhoods, we should have many small ones dispersed all over the metropolitan area. Affluent suburbanites might object to that, out of fear of crime – but wouldn’t this make it much easier to control? A kid in the inner-city projects can snatch a purse and just fade into the background – but how can he do that in suburbia? > > 2. Other persisting problems of African-Americans are not unique to them at all, but shared with poor Americans of all races. Lack of affordable health care, lack of access to good jobs and good education and healthy social environments – poor **whites** have these problems too. In today’s America, **class is more important than race.** The best way to deal with that is a new class-interest-based politics. To start with, we really need to do away with race-based affirmative action – not simply do away with it, but **replace** it with an even more vigorous regime of \*\*class-\*\*based affirmative action, to give the poor black kid and the poor white kid and the poor Hispanic kid a leg up in our society, all equally. > > Of all contemporary American commentators on the interlinked issues of race and class, I think Michael Lind has the best handle on the whole thing. In his book _The Next American Nation_ (Free Press, 1995) – a book I honestly and confidently expect will one day be ranked in importance with _The Federalist Papers_ – Lind made the following statements. (I have gone to the trouble to type these passages up at length and have reproduced them in several other threads. Mods, please let me know if I’m going too far. But I am a lawyer and I’m sure all this comes under “fair use” with respect to copyright law.) > > To begin with, concerning the concept of “class” generally: > > And, concerning race: > > And on the subject of “race”: > > And: > > I say all this needs to be done. We need to build an America where everybody starts with a fair chance in life, even if that involves measures some would call “socialism” (they aren’t, really); and we need an America where the overclass, if it still exists, is no longer distinctively white, and no longer wields political power out of proportion to its numbers. In the long run these reforms are more **important** than fighting racism, and in the long run they are the best **way** to fight racism. What do you say? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/24 "2004-03-20T19:31:44Z")
> [@dal\_timgar](#): > > Very little. Racism is just an extension of classism. Eliminating racism would just mean the racial distribution in each class would become more equal. > > … > > We may develop new classes. Those that understand tech and those that don’t. I agree here. I think the issue is primarily one of class, and not one of racism. Even if racism were totally abolished with no questions asked, the problem would remain as one of class. Frankly, I think that access to proper education and health care are some of the most important factors. The Los Angeles Unified School District, for example, is an absolute joke. I am one of the lucky ones - my parents worked their asses off so that my sister and I could be raised as middle class, and moved out of the hispanic part of town to the more affuent areas. And the schools there are better. I have no doubt that if my parents hadn’t worked so hard (and been so fortunate), I wouldn’t be where I am today. Not all are so fortunate - my father’s siblings had bad luck such as health disabilities, divorces, etc get in their way. So no, removing racism would not solve all ills. It would certainly be nice, though. I’ve been put in enough “uncomfortable” situations as is. Ironically enough, I’ve been discriminated against for not being hispanic “enough” if that makes any sense at all. I’m no genius, this is just my experience. I live in a part of town now where more people speak Spanish than English, and it has a frightening effect in alienating people completely. Throw that language barrier in as culture. So we have instances of culture, education, health care, and finally racism. All of these are difficult to overcome one at a time, but together… Well, lets just say that movements like Affirmative Action effectively patch the statistics and make people feel warm and fuzzy, but they do very little to cause real change where it is needed. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/25 "2004-03-20T20:32:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But suppose we got rid of it? Suppose, by some miracle, the hearts and minds of all Americans were cleansed overnight of all traces of racial prejudice, racial hatred, racial fear and suspicion? Al Sharpton would be pissed. And we’d look for new excuses to hate each other. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/26 "2004-03-20T23:01:08Z")
I don’t think racism is a problem at all. It’s sheer classism. People don’t look down on people because they are black, they look down on them because black people as a percentage are more likely to be uneducated and poor(not stupid and lazy). I don’t think more state education is the answer. Throwing more dollars at a situation I think is far from the answer to anything, yet we seem to think it’s the answer to everything. Creating more community resources that would bind communities and engender communication would be what I would prefer to see. We have working models in my community that we are experimenting with that grew up out of the communal rave scene where people wnated sound systems and parties, but sound systems and parties were expensive, so people got together and organized them communally. We have taken this ethic a step further and we try to incorporate it into other aspects of our lives. I’ve lived in predominantly spanish speaking neighborhoods. I kind of understand spanish but I don’t speak it, and I don’t see it as being THAT much of a hindrance. It’s the “US” and “THEM” approach that causes the problem. Poor white people ARE NOT at more of an advantage than poor black people, and that’s a common misconception. Just because they are white doesn’t mean anything. If a black man can make it in corporate America, he will. If a white man can’t make it in corporate america, he won’t, it’s that simple. Sometimes you can clean someone up of any color, and put them in a suit, and if their personality doesn’t jive with that suit, it’s not going to look right. I say, don’t blame on race what is probably caused by much more subtle bigotries in people’s interpersonal relationships. Erek ---
**Author:** ![BoardMother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47774/32.png) [@BoardMother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoardMother)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/27 "2004-03-21T00:08:30Z")
The black national movement of America is not racist. They only wish to preserve their own seperate cultural and ethnic integrity. ---
**Author:** ![BoardMother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47774/32.png) [@BoardMother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoardMother)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/28 "2004-03-21T00:52:11Z")
> [@](#): > > The black man, despite his social status and prime location, will always be considered a nusiance by his own countryman In Zimbabwe, the native black man, despite his majority status worries more about starving to death as a result of a dictatorial regime having dispossessed all of the white land owners. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/29 "2004-03-21T04:27:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I don’t think racism is a problem at all. It’s sheer classism. People don’t look down on people because they are black, they look down on them because black people as a percentage are more likely to be uneducated and poor(not stupid and lazy). ## I wish we lived in Mswasland were there was no racism. Unfortunately we don’t. Racism is a problem in America. I know plenty of white people want to pretend otherwise but it matters if you are white. Pay attention to what is going on around you. Every time the cop drives by without pulling you over, it could be because you are white. Every time the cashier takes your credit card without asking to see your ID, it could be because you are white. Every job interview you receive could be because you are white. It is easy for white people to overlook their privilege because not having to overcome potential racial stereotypes with every social interaction is taken it for granted. It is nonwhites denied this luxury that most notice how poorly America lives up to its egalitarian rhetoric. > [@BoardMother](#): > > In Zimbabwe, the native black man, despite his majority status worries more about starving to death as a result of a dictatorial regime having dispossessed all of the white land owners. This has what to do with racism in America, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![BoardMother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47774/32.png) [@BoardMother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoardMother)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/30 "2004-03-21T14:24:02Z")
Racism has little to do with the country in which it occurs or which ethnic groups are involved. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/31 "2004-03-21T18:36:56Z")
> [@BoardMother](#): > > Racism has little to do with the country in which it occurs or which ethnic groups are involved. I don’t agree but so what? What has this to do with the brand of racism minorities face in America? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/32 "2004-03-21T21:12:47Z")
BrainGlutton, you mean well, but you are entirely too credulous re the prospective efficaciousness of the sort of residential re-distribution and relocation schemes you offer up as partial solutions. This is the same sloppy, undergraduate nonsense that has enthralled young, well-meaning people and academics for decades. Black “disadvantage” in America, however you want to classify it, is quite unique and trying to understand and devise a solution to it using the paradigmatic lens of the Irish, Hispanic, Jewish etc. “experience” is kind of beside the point. Whatever the adjustment difficulties in the US for other immigrants were, the family structure still existed, even if it was only conceptually and at a distance to the struggles in the new land. These immigrants had no problem springing back to the “family” mold as situations improved. On the other hand, the black family, and the black man, specifically and most importantly, was broken by slavery, and to a large extent he remains broken. For better or worse the majority of family advancement and cultural class enfranchisement in the US has come (and still comes to a large extent) from a male wage earners and fathers with high inter-family cultural status + a supportive female homemaking/child care taking unit. For centuries in the US, this is not the way the majority of black men and black families have functioned for entirely practical reasons given the context of their environments and the requirements for survival. The only way that American black families are going to become fully class enfranchised is to become like other families. Whether one thinks this is a scouring and dis-respecting of the uniqueness and strength of extant female centered back family structures is irrelevant. Until the black family can somehow (and I have no idea how this is to be accomplished) re-empower the black man, none of this is going to happen. This will have to come from within and probably over a very long period of time, external, well meaning, social engineering attempts to do this are likely to have a poor record of success. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/33 "2004-03-22T04:12:06Z")
> [@astro](#): > > On the other hand, the black family, and the black man, specifically and most importantly, was broken by slavery, and to a large extent he remains broken. Just how true is this? How different is an attitude of “broken to the core by slavery” from an attitude of “racially inferior”? The former does find somebody _else_ (bad white people) to blame for the state, but both are ultimately essentialistic statements of core inferiority–although the latter has a “path to redemption” built in (become more like white people). I just don’t see it as the dominant social mode among \<\\>. Yes, there are the shiftless, but they aren’t the rule. I see far more “hardworking taxpayer” folk among the \<\\> than I do “lazy shiftless censored censored censored”. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/34 "2004-03-22T05:37:46Z")
> [@Dogface](#): > > Just how true is this? How different is an attitude of “broken to the core by slavery” from an attitude of “racially inferior”? The former does find somebody _else_ (bad white people) to blame for the state, but both are ultimately essentialistic statements of core inferiority–although the latter has a “path to redemption” built in (become more like white people). > > I just don’t see it as the dominant social mode among \<\\>. Yes, there are the shiftless, but they aren’t the rule. I see far more “hardworking taxpayer” folk among the \<\\> than I do “lazy shiftless censored censored censored”. Since the point I’m trying to make is being missed entirely, and you’re busy trying to morph a statement about the historically dysfunctional, post -slavery nature of American black family structures in modernity, into a kinda-sorta notion of “racial inferiority”, let me diagram my point more clearly. In modernity, families that are capable of ascendant cultural class enfranchisement, economic success, and most importantly raising children directed in the same manner, have, until relatively, recently required a high inter-family status working father and a care taking mother. This is not a model that most black children, and more specifically black _male_ children have as the standard model for their world view and ontological toolkit as to how they should make their way in the world. Cosby’s Doc Huxtable aside, for better or worse, black men, are often seen as inherently flawed, transient and sometimes disposable commodities within the standard matriarchal centric black family, by both the mother and children, and ultimately themselves. There are exceptions to this of course, and strong black father role models are not unheard of, but they are the exception not the rule. This is not to entirely blame the aforesaid logic of a black matriarch in a high stress domestic situation, coping with a partner who is neither culturally, behaviorally, or emotionally trained, or able to assume the roles and responsibilities of typical middle class family fatherhood, with it’s huge investment of resources and inborn assumptions of what a man/father will do and how he will behave. The man is this way, because his father was this way etc. etc., up and down the generations. Fathers train sons by behavior and example. If the example is dysfunctional or absent, the training will be dysfunctional. Slavery broke the back of black families over many generations. Matriarchal centered families wasn’t “a choice”, it was the _only_ choice for survival. So now here we are in 2004. Black families are still disproportionably mired in poverty, violence and the associated underclass. Economically successful families (not always but most often) need culturally trained, productive fathers willing to make huge investments of time and resources in their families and children. Until the state of the American black male and black families cultural mindset and structure changes to be more like the archetypal white/Jewish/ Cuban/ Jamaican/Asian models, its dysfunctional nature and poverty will continue relative to the demands of modern society. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/35 "2004-03-22T06:18:06Z")
> [@](#): > > In modernity, families that are capable of ascendant cultural class enfranchisement, economic success, and most importantly raising children directed in the same manner, have, until relatively, recently required a high inter-family status working father and a care taking mother. This is not a model that most black children, and more specifically black male children have as the standard model for their world view and ontological toolkit as to how they should make their way in the world. I don’t even know whether this is true or not and I would wager that you don’t know either. But it does sound good, doesn’t it? Wealth is something that is passed on in families, homes, insurance policies, investements and the like. White people have more wealth because they’ve historically had more wealth. Take two WWII vetrans one black one white. They both by a home, the black vetran’s home by default would not appreciate in value as the white vetran. Why? Simple, racist policies that still exist today insure that a neighborhood with whites will have higher property values than that of black neighborhoods. When the white vetran dies and leaves the home to his kids they’re looking at a very good little nest egg, the same can’t be said of the children of the black vetran when the home could only be purchased in an area where the property values aren’t allowed to rise because of racist policies. White people don’t want to move into black neighborhoods and historically it wasn’t because of crime it’s because the country was segragated that was the law about 50 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/36 "2004-03-22T18:40:30Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > I don’t even know whether this is true or not and I would wager that you don’t know either. But it does sound good, doesn’t it? > > Wealth is something that is passed on in families, homes, insurance policies, investements and the like. White people have more wealth because they’ve historically had more wealth. Take two WWII vetrans one black one white. They both by a home, the black vetran’s home by default would not appreciate in value as the white vetran. Why? Simple, racist policies that still exist today insure that a neighborhood with whites will have higher property values than that of black neighborhoods. When the white vetran dies and leaves the home to his kids they’re looking at a very good little nest egg, the same can’t be said of the children of the black vetran when the home could only be purchased in an area where the property values aren’t allowed to rise because of racist policies. White people don’t want to move into black neighborhoods and historically it wasn’t because of crime it’s because the country was segragated that was the law about 50 years ago. The relatively minor “wealth” that may (_and this is by no means a certainity in many cases_) pass to some middle class non-black children in the form of “nest eggs” etc after the death of the parents, is dwarfed in importance and real world impact, by the cognitive “wealth” that child receives in terms of the mindset and training by example, of the attitudes and behavior that are necessary for success in modern, middle class society. As a side note, life in old age for a large portion of the American middle class is quite expensive. You would be surprised by how many children of middle class and upper middle class professionals were left with essentially nothing but some furniture after the funeral expenses were paid. I’m one of them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/37 "2004-03-22T19:50:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > People don’t look down on people because they are black, they look down on them because black people as a percentage are more likely to be uneducated and poor(not stupid and lazy). This is simply not true. There are numerous studies that show that when a black person cleans up just as good as a white person and then tries to get a job or rents an apartment, discrimination occurs. This would not be the case if it was just that blacks are more likely to be targets of classicm. Would anti-black racism go away if blacks, as a group, were financially better off? I don’t know. More than half of black people enjoy a middle-class existence right now, and yet most people (it seems to me) believe that black people are overwhelmingly poor and urban. I have a feeling this perception will remain for some time after the income of blacks come to reflect society at-large. I think the perception is just as much a problem as the reality. Classism is definitely a problem, and I believes it intersects with racism in the case of black people. A black person may or may not be poor, but they are more likely to be viewed as poor than a white person. So in an encounter with a class-conscious bigot…even one who doesn’t believe in “racial inferiority”…,the white person would tend to get a fairer shake. Because a black person is perceived to be poor, he or she may also be perceived to be uneducated, criminal, morally irresponsible, and lazy. In other words, all the stereotypical traits generally applied to black people. Saying people notice class but not race is simply not true. I think people use race as a way to size up class, which sucks if you aren’t white or Asian. The difficulty in teasing apart classism and racism can be illustrated in a little story. Let’s say you’re at the museum and you see two groups of middle schoolers. One class is all white and one class is all black. I’ll be the first to confess: I would assume that the all-black group is from an underachieving, underfunded public school. And then I’d assume that the all-white group was from a highachieving, elite private school. I would come to both assumptions after a cursory glance because race is an easy–though often wrong–way to sum up people and their economic station. My prejudice wouldn’t mean much if I were merely a passerby, but it could come into play if I were a manager at the museum’s giftshop, or if I were a tour guide responsible for showing the kids around. In the case of the latter, maybe I wouldn’t ask the black kids too many tough questions, and I would dumb down my language. Maybe I would take the white kids to see things that are targeted to more intelligent, sophisticated audiences. You could make the case that both racism and classism, but none of these two things alone, explain my behavior. I think people have to be honest with themselves and constantly question the kinds of assumptions they make. It’s the day-to-day encounters we have with each other that will ultimately determine how successful we are at eradicating racism. ---
**Author:** ![BoardMother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47774/32.png) [@BoardMother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoardMother)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/38 "2004-03-22T23:41:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t agree but so what? Undefined statements of agreement or disagreement are irrelevant. > [@](#): > > What has this to do with the brand of racism minorities face in America? Acts of racism are independant of race and country and they are also independant of which group constitutes the majority. This is comparable to the situation in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/39 "2004-03-23T01:05:47Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The relatively minor “wealth” that may (_and this is by no means a certainity in many cases_) pass to some middle class non-black children in the form of “nest eggs” etc after the death of the parents, is dwarfed in importance and real world impact, by the cognitive “wealth” that child receives in terms of the mindset and training by example, of the attitudes and behavior that are necessary for success in modern, middle class society. What about the real world impact of the cognitive “theft” by a system of slavery, followed by a system of segregation, followed by continued racist practices? Do you think that for a moment that hundreds of years of policies directed toward keeping blacks at the lowest rungs of society has no effect 50 or so years later? The disparity in real estate values and the resulting wealth that is generated over the years is substantial especially when you’re not the beneficiary of it. Keep in mind in most of the country, school funding is driven by property taxes, wealthier communities i.e. those that have higher property values have better schools because they are better funded. > [@](#): > > As a side note, life in old age for a large portion of the American middle class is quite expensive. You would be surprised by how many children of middle class and upper middle class professionals were left with essentially nothing but some furniture after the funeral expenses were paid. I’m one of them. Those middle class and upper middle class professionals still benefited from the wealth that existed that afforded them a good education because of where they lived and because of white priviledge. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204/40 "2004-03-23T03:12:48Z")
> [@BoardMother](#): > > The black national movement of America is not racist. They only wish to preserve their own seperate cultural and ethnic integrity. The “White Nationalists” of [stormfront.org](http://stormfront.org), etc., say exactly the same thing about themselves. What’s the difference? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-america-got-rid-of-all-racism-how-much-would-really-change/234204.md?page=3)