# If ancient people ate modern food **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904 "2018-03-20T19:00:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/41 "2018-03-23T06:11:51Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [Garum was a fermented fish sauce used as a condiment in the cuisines of ancient Greece, Rome, and later Byzantium.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum) Seriously, you think I haven’t researched _garum_? I tracked down and ordered the [closest modern version](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_Alici), FFS. I take period cooking very seriously. Your last-minute attempted Wiki gotcha is not a counter to years of reading about the stuff. Get back to me when you’ve made roasted garum-and-cumin honeyed peaches yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/42 "2018-03-23T10:31:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Seriously, you think I haven’t researched _garum_? I tracked down and ordered the [closest modern version](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_Alici), FFS. I take period cooking very seriously. Your last-minute attempted Wiki gotcha is not a counter to years of reading about the stuff. Get back to me when you’ve made roasted garum-and-cumin honeyed peaches yourself. [NatGeo calls it fermented](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/magazine/2018/01-02/what-is-garum-rome-fish-sauce/). [NPR calls it fermented](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/10/26/240237774/fish-sauce-an-ancient-roman-condiment-rises-again). [A paper described in Science Direct calls it fermented](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1878450X1730001X). [The Guardian calls it fermented](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/aug/26/garum-sauce-colatura-di-alici-italy-fish). [Mother Jones calls it fermented](https://www.motherjones.com/food/2017/07/fish-sauce-ancient-rome-garum/). [The Newfoundland Independent calls it fermented](http://theindependent.ca/2015/05/16/the-garum-experiment/). [No Tech Magazine calls it fermented](http://www.notechmagazine.com/2015/10/garum-fermented-fish-sauce-for-the-ancient-roman-masses.html). [The book Garum and Salsamenta: Producation and Commerce in Materia Medica apparently calls it fermented](http://www.worldcat.org/title/garum-and-salsamenta-production-and-commerce-in-materia-medica/oclc/758065398?referer=di&ht=edition). [A Field Guide to Fermentation apparently calls it fermented](https://ddsks.dk/sites/default/files/downloads/a_field_guide_to_fermentation_uddrag.pdf). The ball is on the other foot, checkmate. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/43 "2018-03-23T11:46:54Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [NatGeo calls it fermented](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/magazine/2018/01-02/what-is-garum-rome-fish-sauce/). > [@](#): > > [NPR calls it fermented](https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/10/26/240237774/fish-sauce-an-ancient-roman-condiment-rises-again). [A paper described in Science Direct calls it fermented](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1878450X1730001X). [The Guardian calls it fermented](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/aug/26/garum-sauce-colatura-di-alici-italy-fish). [Mother Jones calls it fermented](https://www.motherjones.com/food/2017/07/fish-sauce-ancient-rome-garum/). [The Newfoundland Independent calls it fermented](http://theindependent.ca/2015/05/16/the-garum-experiment/). [No Tech Magazine calls it fermented](http://www.notechmagazine.com/2015/10/garum-fermented-fish-sauce-for-the-ancient-roman-masses.html). [The book Garum and Salsamenta: Producation and Commerce in Materia Medica apparently calls it fermented](http://www.worldcat.org/title/garum-and-salsamenta-production-and-commerce-in-materia-medica/oclc/758065398?referer=di&ht=edition). [A Field Guide to Fermentation apparently calls it fermented](https://ddsks.dk/sites/default/files/downloads/a_field_guide_to_fermentation_uddrag.pdf). The ball is on the other foot, checkmate. I apologise, I have been a bit imprecise. Making _garum_ _is_ [fermentation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation#Definitions) in the sense of "Any energy-releasing metabolic process that takes place only under anaerobic conditions ", I’ll concede that. It is _not_, however, any of : [ul] [li]a preservation method for food via microorganisms.[/li][li]a process that produces alcoholic beverages or acidic dairy products[/li][li]a large-scale microbial process occurring with or without air.[/li][/ul] and there is, contrary to what the poster I _originally_ replied to was suggesting, _ **no yeast in it** _. So sure, it’s “_fermented_ fish”, because that word has lots of meanings. But the production doesn’t involve any microbes. When I say “it’s not fermented, it’s autolysed”, that’s a perfectly accurate way to describe the distinction. And it’s _that_ distinction I want to make sure is clear. I refuse to resign. One of your references talks about making “beef garum”, FFS. But boy, you sure google good, well done, you! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/44 "2018-03-23T11:56:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But boy, you sure google good, well done, you! Thanks. The last time I even thought about garum before reading this thread was–well, it was [one day before it was mentioned in this thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20854193&postcount=22). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/45 "2018-03-23T12:05:22Z")
Also, you might enjoy [a manga series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moyasimon:_Tales_of_Agriculture) about food/drink fermentation. It ran to 13 volumes! ([Archive.org link](https://archive.org/details/manga_Moyashimon).) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/46 "2018-03-23T12:12:07Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Also, you might enjoy [a manga series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moyasimon:_Tales_of_Agriculture) about food/drink fermentation. It ran to 13 volumes! ([Archive.org link](https://archive.org/details/manga_Moyashimon).) I’m familiar with it. It came up on some old thread about drinking _fermented_ milk, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/47 "2018-03-23T14:58:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > None of the recipes we have for \*garum \*mention adding anything extraneous to the mix, just the fish (or even - just the fish guts) and salt. But that’s absolutely typical for traditional fermented foods. Sauerkraut is just cabbage and salt. Fermented pickles are just cucumbers in salted water. (Yes, there are microbes on the produce, in the air, all that kind of stuff, but nothing “extraneous” is added.) That said, I see the distinction you’re making describing it as autolysis and not microbial or bacterial decomposition. That is a difference. But that seems to be referred to as “fermentation” or garum as a “fermented fish sauce” everywhere I could find, too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/48 "2018-03-23T16:55:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But that’s absolutely typical for traditional fermented foods. Sauerkraut is just cabbage and salt. Fermented pickles are just cucumbers in salted water. (Yes, there are microbes on the produce, in the air, all that kind of stuff, but nothing “extraneous” is added.) True enough, but once again, the original context there was talking about microbes being added. > [@](#): > > That said, I see the distinction you’re making describing it as autolysis and not microbial or bacterial decomposition. That is a difference. But that seems to be referred to as “fermentation” or garum as a “fermented fish sauce” everywhere I could find, too. I’m happy to acknowledge that that’s the common usage. But you can see how not drawing the distinction would lead to the kind of misapprehension **Johnny Bravo** had. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/49 "2018-03-23T17:21:20Z")
Ah, yes. I didn’t go far back enough in the thread to see the “using different strains of yeast” part. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/50 "2018-03-23T19:10:31Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > . Go to France and you’ll probably get sick too, because things are different there. Really not. If I may add a data point, I have travelled all round Europe and neither I nor my companions have ever had food trouble. Likewise in the USA and much of Africa. The exception is Egypt, where I once absently-minded ate a mouthful of salad (I had been warned not to) and in less than an hour I was doing the Toilet Two-step. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/51 "2018-03-23T20:15:43Z")
Thanks to this thread, I now have an image of Leonardo da Vinci and Socrates sitting in a car discussing their Sonic meals. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/52 "2018-03-23T23:47:41Z")
I would also guess that carbonated soft drinks would really scare the ancients at first. That prickly, somewhat painful sensation in the mouth… ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/53 "2018-03-24T01:58:30Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I’m not so sure. Even today there are cultures where sweet foods are not as prevalent. Most Europeans and North Americans are surprised at the lack of sweetness of Japanese desserts and treats—they’re often savoury, and even when sweet, tend to have a lot less sugar than Western desserts and snacks. I imagine that Japanese people encountering Western treats for the first time might indeed be “appalled” at how sweet they are. A online friend of mine teaches an American culture class in a Japanese private school and she sent home for a break and came back and handed them out (kit kats and reeses cups) and a lot of the students couldn’t finish them because of the sweetness Japan prefers a darker chocolate than we do and they make the candy accordingly she said at one time tho you could of made a million bucks by opening a us style bakery chain as baked goods were really unheard of she made donuts from a cookbook for a way to raise money for a class trip and sold out in minutes based on the sheer novelty of them … ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/54 "2018-03-24T07:57:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I would also guess that carbonated soft drinks would really scare the ancients at first. That prickly, somewhat painful sensation in the mouth… Depends what those ancients were used to, I guess - there are plenty of naturally carbonated springs, usage of which goes back to _at least_ the Romans. The spring Perrier water comes from, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/55 "2018-03-24T12:03:05Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > A online friend of mine teaches an American culture class in a Japanese private school and she sent home for a break and came back and handed them out (kit kats and reeses cups) and a lot of the students couldn’t finish them because of the sweetness > > Japan prefers a darker chocolate than we do and they make the candy accordingly > > she said at one time tho you could of made a million bucks by opening a us style bakery chain as baked goods were really unheard of > > she made donuts from a cookbook for a way to raise money for a class trip and sold out in minutes based on the sheer novelty of them … That story makes no sense to me. Taking Kit Kats to Japan is like [taking coal](https://kotaku.com/5983276/15-flavors-of-japanese-kit-kats-the-snacktaku-review) [to Newcastle](https://soranews24.com/?s=kit+kats#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=kit%20kats&gsc.page=1). The same goes for [baked](https://gurunavi.com/en/japanfoodie/2016/09/japanese-bakeries.html? __ngt__ =TT0e1da519b000ac1e4ae862II0-RT_AqXR7ndYPmfuNRI) [goods](http://howibecametexan.com/2014/10/15/things-love-japan-japanese-bakeries-cake-shops/). [And](https://kotaku.com/oh-my-gosh-japans-animal-donuts-are-too-cute-1075618608) [also](https://www.glamour.com/story/krispy-kreme-japan-luxury-doughnuts) [for](https://www.yelp.com/search?cflt=donuts&find_loc=Shibuya%2C+%E6%9D%B1%E4%BA%AC%E9%83%BD) [doughnuts](https://www.tokyoweekender.com/2015/06/the-doughnut-round-up-grading-6-of-tokyos-sweet-spots/). The only thing on that list even remotely exotic in Japan is [Peanut Butter Cups before 2012](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-candy/japan-yens-for-reeses-peanut-butter-cups-idUSBRE87L0IN20120822). Your friend–it seems–is either posting from 1.) early last century 2.) the most remote area of Japan possible or 2.) her ass. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904/56 "2018-03-24T23:29:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, I, too, find that rather unlikely. Maybe I have a stronger gut and better intestinal flora than most, but I’ve only once had a minor case of the runs in all my travels, and that was in India (and that was about a week into the journey, and I partook of the street food, only avoiding things that may have had water on them or weren’t fully cooked.) My various traveling companions have similarly been fine. In Western Europe, I can’t imagine what kind of “bugs” an American diet needs to acclimate to. Same here. Several months in India and not one case of _Delhi Belly_. I was backpacking so street food was what I was eating. The best was the corn flakes with fresh milk available at the train stations. Kinda wondered how much processing the milk went through though, but the taste of something familiar was priceless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-ancient-people-ate-modern-food/810904.md?page=2)