# If Barack Obama really was from Kenya...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860 "2013-07-07T07:58:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/101 "2013-07-16T15:36:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Has there ever been a democracy that retroactively declared one of its leaders ineligible (and all related legislation null)? Seems to me the kind of rollback magellan is advocating is the hallmark of military coups. Or a major plot point in a Heinlein novel. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/102 "2013-07-16T15:37:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It seems crystal clear to me that that Founders intended that no one would be able to be President if they didn’t meet certain basic qualifications. I glean that from their words stating so. That is indeed crystal clear. It is also crystal clear that there is no mechanism spelled out in the Constitution to enforce these provisions, except the electoral college process. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/103 "2013-07-16T15:50:09Z")
Yes, the Constitution spells out eligibility requirements. But it contains no enforcement mechanisms for those requirements. The real enforcement mechanism is the Electoral College. Which means, the sovereign states enforce it by choosing who to vote for. It is up to the states to make sure that they don’t send electors to vote for a 34 year old, or a Canadian. If the states are negligent in enforcing their duty, then there is no other mechanism in the Constitution to remedy the situation, other than impeachment by Congress, or removal via the 22nd amendment. The Constitution is not a self-enforcing document, it requires human beings to act to enforce it. It is simply nonsensical to claim that, because a person sworn in was not eligible, the office was empty. I mean, if the ineligible president sends troops to Somalia, do those people become war criminals for following orders? Do little old ladies have to mail back their social security checks that they’ve already spent? Do we go to disabled veteran’s houses and confiscate their prosthetic legs and wheelchairs? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/104 "2013-07-16T20:25:46Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > No - under the law governing births out of the US at the time, the parent had to have lived a certain number of years in the US to be able to pass on citizenship. Obama’s mom hadn’t actually lived in the US the required number of years, because her parents had moved around No, she was raised entirely in the US. It’s because a glitch in the way the law was drafted did not allow an 18 year old to qualify (though a 19 year old could) even if they lived every moment in the US from birth until the day before their child was born. And in fact there is no evidence that Obama’s mother ever left the US or at least lived outside the US before her college years. The law, which only applied to people born between 1952 and 1986, read as follows: > [@](#): > > When one parent was a U.S. citizen and the other a foreign national, the U.S. citizen parent must have resided in the U.S. for a total of 10 years prior to birth of the child with FIVE of the years after\* the age of 14. This is something I think the Supreme Court might well throw out since she was an adult and married. And in any event, along with the completely unproven claim that she had left the country and gone to Kenya where Barack was born, the right wing is essentially pinning everything on her being three months too young to have qualified him for natural born citizenship. Do we really think this is their fundamental beef: that Obama’s mother was three months shy of her 19th birthday when he was born? Like that would have made him so much more American in their eyes if she were three months older? Do we think Republicans would have the same objection if their star candidate had been born to a 19 year old married evangelical Christian from northern Idaho who had happened to accidentally get stuck just north of the Canadian border when her baby was born, but then immediately returned and never left the US again? * * * \*IANAL but my sense of how language is normally used in legislation is that this would mean on her 19th birthday she became eligible for this kind of parenthood; but it could be argued that it was her 20th birthday. Neither of these ages have historically been used to establish the age at which one attains majority, though; so it is a strange glitch in the law either way. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/105 "2013-07-17T03:48:01Z")
I’m sure someone (;)) will have no problem providing us with the crystal clear, unambiguous language, that defines Natural Born Citizen for the office of President? Bonus points if it can be done without mentioning Emerich de Vattel! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/106 "2013-07-17T05:39:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That is indeed crystal clear. Ah, agreement. Excellent. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It is also crystal clear that there is no mechanism spelled out in the Constitution to enforce these provisions, except the electoral college process. So doesn’t it make sense for us to try to craft a solution/mechanism that would comport with the part we agree about? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/107 "2013-07-17T13:36:47Z")
It makes a great deal of sense, but you can’t make one up after the fact. The only appropriate solution is duly passed legislation, which would apply _prospectively_. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/108 "2013-07-18T01:15:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ah, agreement. Excellent. > > So doesn’t it make sense for us to try to craft a solution/mechanism that would comport with the part we agree about? So, you want to write a Constitutional amendment? that would allow Congress to nullify an entire presidency? I’m sure both parties would like to see such a thing- contact your representative and get started. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/109 "2013-07-18T09:52:04Z")
Whilst I sort of get how it’s not feasible to declare an entire presidency null and void retrospectively, I am really surprised there doesn’t seem to be a way to immediately fire/depose/replace a non- Natural Born Citizen president if it was discovered during their term in office, though. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/110 "2013-07-18T10:10:08Z")
There is- impeachment. Any time congress feels like it, they can fire the President. But on the last day of term two, what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/111 "2013-07-18T10:26:50Z")
Let me add a quick thought- A lot of this was inspired by Thomas Jefferson. He didn’t write the original constitution, but he did influence it greatly. Jefferson was certain that citizens would wisely inform themselves about the candidates and make the choice that best suited them. Enforcement of restrictions wasn’t really TJ’s style, he was more into letting people do that themselves. If for some reason We the People wanted a 29 year old Canadian as President, Jefferson would have been ok with that. Bewildered, perhaps, that no American was a better choice. But the will of the people is the law of the land. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/112 "2013-07-18T10:45:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My point is that thew person never _really_ was President, as he/she didn’t meet the requirements clearly and unambiguously stated in the Constitution. Article II, Section 1: > > So, someone who does not meet those requirements simply cannot be President. It does _not_ say that a person must either satisfy the above OR get enough electoral college votes. Here’s your problem. It does not say that someone who doesn’t meet those requirements cannot be President. It says someone who does not meet those requirements is not eligible to be President. The country can elect an ineligible President just like it can elect an unqualified President. It’s not supposed to, but it’s not logically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/113 "2013-07-18T12:49:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Where did she live outside the U.S. between her teen years and the birth of Barack? I do not recall any requirement to live in a particular state for any length of time and the family movements of which I was aware were all within the contiguous states until they moved to Hawaii after it became a state. Sorry, my mistake. I got confused between the age issue and the movements of his mother after he was born. **Colibri** gently corrected me back in post 14: [QUOTE=Colibri] It wasn’t because the family had moved around, but because she wouldn’t have been old enough to pass on her citizenship if her child had been born outside the US. At the time, the requirements were that in the case of one non-citizen and one citizen parent, the citizen parent had to have lived 10 years in the US, five of which had to be after the age of 14. Since Obama’s mother was only 18 at the time of his birth, she couldn’t meet the latter requirement. The law has since been changed. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/114 "2013-07-18T12:51:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Or a major plot point in a Heinlein novel. Which one? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/115 "2013-07-18T13:06:49Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Which one? The theme appeared in _Number Of The Beast_ and _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/116 "2013-07-18T13:12:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The theme appeared in _Number Of The Beast_ and _Job: A Comedy of Justice_, I believe. I was referring to _If This Goes On—_. I haven’t read those two yet. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/117 "2013-07-18T18:41:57Z")
Getting back to the thread topic, it’s easy to say, “Well, the Supreme Court will solve the problem.” The question then arises: " The Supreme Court with 7 justices? Or 9?" Are Kagan and Sotomayor judges of the Court, or not? And who gets to decide that? ---
**Author:** ![conservativerod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@conservativerod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/conservativerod)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/118 "2013-07-21T00:47:20Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I was reading a humour piece elsewhere on the internet the other day which made reference to the whole “Barack Obama is really from Kenya!” nonsense. > > Since I’m not American, the fact people apparently took the notion seriously in the first place is, well, eyebrow raising to say the least, but it did give rise to an interesting hypothetical (or at least, I think it’s interesting)… > > Let’s pretend, in his big closing address as he finishes his tenure as president, Mr Obama reveals that, by the way, he was actually born in Kenya after all. > > What are the political or legal ramifications of this? I’m not as concerned with the tinfoil hat brigade jumping up and down with “See? See? WE TOLD YOU SO!!1!1”, but whether or not it would create some sort of sitation where some or all of his presidency might be declared invalid retroactively or something like that. > > I’m going to apologise in advance if someone’s already asked this (I’m sure they have), but my thread search with the keywords “Obama” and “Kenya” turned up eleventy squillion results, and none of the ones I could see immediately appeared to address the hypothetical mentioned earlier. Maobama has lied so much, i don’t trust him. And he’s had so many excuses made for him by empty-headed zombies, it is pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/119 "2013-07-21T00:55:12Z")
Thank you for your well-reasoned and insightful contribution. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860/120 "2013-07-21T03:07:39Z")
I will admit that I am a strong Obama supporter who nevertheless has long found a whiff of something fishy around the whole deal with Obama’s birth certificate. I just don’t really care about this technicality, that’s all. He is who he is, either way. I have to admit that it would be kinda cool though to watch all the right wingers’ heads explode if it were revealed in say 2021, a few months into Hillary’s second term, that it was a forgery. When 55% of the public shrugs and says “oh well, still better than McCain or Romney”, the collective hissy fit from the 30% who detest him would be one for the ages. Sit back, pop the popcorn, and just really savour that one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-barack-obama-really-was-from-kenya/662860.md?page=5)