# If Biden wins, he will have to make big, unpopular tax increases in his 1st term **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813 "2020-04-29T14:43:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/41 "2020-04-30T12:47:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > None that I know of, but again, the Yahoo Finance article states that Social Security, Medicare, and other programs are slated to run short of money by 2023-2028. You can’t fix that without raising revenue steeply. Why? Why couldn’t they roll them into the regular budget and pay with debt? Then, you could cut, say, military spending substantially to pay for it, right? Or, issue more debt – raising spending without raising revenue was the plan under Trump and Bush, why not under Biden? Now, if enter an economic boom and taxes could be made without hurting the economy, maybe we should consider it. But, the markets have been begging the US to borrow, borrow, borrow, with negative real rates – we should be borrowing at negative real rates and investing in infrastructure (fixing bridges and roads, data infrastructure, pre-K education, etc.). I’m sure that Yahoo! author has many pieces decrying the Trump and Bush tax cuts, right? Maybe I’ll take a look and see what I can find. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/42 "2020-04-30T12:53:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > **If Biden wins, he will have to make big, unpopular tax increases in his 1st term** > … > Of course, the same could be said of Trump, but if Trump is reelected, America has a lot more things to worry about than taxes. Although your final sentence offers a partial retraction, OP’s title suggests you’ve bought into the meme that _Democrats_ are supposed to balance the budget, but not _Republicans_. In a related thread someone raised the example of the wife who needs to economize by re-using toilet paper to make up for hubby’s squandering a fortune on strippers and cocaine. In any event, this faulty claim has been addressed repeatedly in prior threads. I’ll let **iiandyiiii** do the honors: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps by the old way of thinking – that somehow deficits matter, politically speaking. But the last few decades have definitively demonstrated, IMO, that deficits don’t matter at all, politically speaking. Several presidents have already gotten this memo (most notably Reagan, Bush II, and Trump). Maybe Democrats should get it too. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > … Interest rates are always higher than inflation and the rise proportionate to risk… Always? I believe one can find plenty of exceptions in the historical record. For starters, let’s look all the way back to the year 2020. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/43 "2020-04-30T18:44:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > … > I am pointing out that elderly workers get welfare in the form of automatic raises that continue long past commensurate raises in their productivity. … That’s not "welfare’ in any way shape or form. In fact welfare as it used to be is gone since the Clinton administration. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2020, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/44 "2020-05-03T20:23:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Also from your cite - > > > [@](#): > > > > Trump did not have to fight a recession during his term. > > Like hell he doesn’t. LOL. You understand, I assume, the difference between “did not” and “doesn’t.” When the article was written, the Coronavirus lockdown had not begun, and Trump himself had spent much of his term bragging about the fantastic economy. And yet during that time, he had managed to oversee not only large, but constantly increasing deficits despite the overall health of the economy. Obama, by contrast, saw basically the steepest and most consistent decline in budget deficits of the past 60 years. He might not have inherited the stimulus package, but he inherited the economic conditions that made the stimulus necessary. Also, a[s I’ve tried to point out to you before](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21806300#post21806300) (and was ignored, as usual when you don’t like the facts), the discussion about the deficit is not just an economic discussion, but a political one, and is not just about what parties do; it’s about the connection (or otherwise) between what they say and what they do. Obama promised to halve the deficit in his first term in office, and he “only” managed to REDUCE the deficit by about $500 billion. Trump promised to reduce the deficit, and eliminate the debt, and he managed to ADD over $300 billion to the deficit in his first three years, with the promise of even greater deficits thereafter. And now “regular” deficits are blown all to hell by the $3 trillion+ we’re spending to deal with the current crisis. I’m not blaming Trump for that; it’s been a bipartisan spending spree. But given your relentless bothsidesism and whataboutism and false equivalencies, I have no doubt that, if it were a Democratic president, you’d be just as fair. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/45 "2020-05-03T20:38:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I haven’t spent the time looking into this but I think we can just borrow it from ourselves. As opposed to simply printing money we pay it back on a schedule and reduce the money supply by the amount paid back. We don’t even have to charge interest because we have good credit with ourselves. > > I’m not sure that works, but I don’t see that much difference in how we do it now borrowing from others. I know banks will squawk about reducing the money supply but I think it prevents the inflationary effect of simply printing money. > > Maybe someone will point out the flaw in that reasoning. isn’t that basically our bond market ? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/46 "2020-05-04T00:40:36Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Biden should spend whatever it takes to get universal health care, infrastructure rebuilding, and green energy going, and to hell with the hypocritical hand-wringing from Pubs about deficits. By all means, raise taxes on the wealthy. For starters, remove the cap on Social Security taxes, which would instantly fix that program. Plug the loopholes that allow huge corporations and wealthy investors to pay little or no tax. Put real teeth into penalties for companies who are American in all but name, but avoid taxes by having a drop box in the Caymans. Restore the inheritance tax for multi-millionaires. > > But there is no need to raise taxes on anyone making less than six figures. Biden doesn’t need to make \*unpopular \*tax increases, but he does need to make \*popular \*tax increases. Roll back all the unfunded tax cuts under trump and bush, increase taxable income on everyone that makes a couple hundred k, inheritance taxes, increase the corporate tax rates to pay for universal health care, rebuilding america’s infrastructure, and lead in green technologies to stop the planet from melting down. I think the above would be very popular tax increases at least for the democratic base. The top 5 or 10 percenters won’t like it much but they don’t create jobs. Americans should change from how little can my shelters and lawyers let me get away with paying in taxes, to competitive patriotic bragging “ya numbnut, I make so much money I pay 60% in taxes! What are you a 40 percenter? ha ha” ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@cornflakes2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/47 "2020-05-04T01:06:56Z")
What I don’t understand about America is why would you want Biden as your President? He already ran two previous times and lost. If he wasn’t good enough to win before, then having him as President now is like saying, “well, there’s no one else to choose from so let’s just give it to him since he’s been trying the longest”. Where is the new blood? Why do you always want the same old people running all the time? It’s like an old gang that just keeps hanging around and hanging around and you don’t want that…time to clean out and get some fresh new blood in there. America feels like it’s been run by the same old groupies for 40 years and it’s unchanged. All they do is take turns swapping seats. The next President’s after Biden will be the return of Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush, but my money says Mike Pence is being set up for the next candidate, and and Sanders may run again just as the token fall guy…and Americans will feel like they have new candidates? It smells old and something is not right about having the same people in office all the time. Trump was actually refreshing. He was unexpected and he’s definitely not part of the cronies or groupies that have been running America for a century. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/48 "2020-05-04T01:47:04Z")
cornflakes2, why to you hate America? We’ve had primaries and Biden is the one that got the votes. I have yet to find \*anyone \*out there that believes “just give it too him since he’s been trying the longest.” If trump is “re-elected” in 2020, then say hello to president eric or jared or ivana in 2024 because democracy in the US will be dead by then. pence is hired help to bring in the anti abortion right wing christian vote. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/49 "2020-05-04T01:53:53Z")
> [@cornflakes2](#): > > He was unexpected and he’s definitely not part of the cronies or groupies that have been running America for a century. LOL. This is hilarious. On the one hand, you complain about Biden because he’s just another seat-swapper, another member of the the old gang. There’s some merit to this concern, for sure. But complaining about the old gang loses all of its force when your next point seems to be that _ **anyone** _ else is better, even Trump. Not only that, but the only way that Trump is different from the “old gang” is in sheer brazenness of his corruption and his unbridled narcissism. He hasn’t really done anything to change the way that the country runs, and he certainly hasn’t “drained the swamp” of Washington like he said he was going to. What we’ve got right now is basically Mitch McConnell’s politics overlaid by Trump’s temperament. That’s just the old gang, with extra asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/50 "2020-05-04T18:01:33Z")
Reading this thread cracks me up. All the conservative types wringing their hands worrying about the deficit under Biden is such a laugh. The only time conservatives are concerned about the national debt is when a D is in the WH. When the GOP is in power all they care about is cutting taxes and increasing military spending. It’s been that way since at least Reagan. The only times there have been serious attempts to cut the debt have been under Clinton and Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/51 "2020-05-04T20:19:45Z")
Tax hikes simply won’t be possible early in Biden’s first term – they would be crippling to an economy that (if we’re lucky) will just be starting to recover from the shock of the quarantine. They’d also be political suicide. So we’re talking 2023 or later. If things have normalized by then to where we can worry that tax hikes might be unpopular, I’ll consider that a triumph for the forces of good and a sign that the U.S. might not be in the express lane to oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/52 "2020-05-05T01:14:55Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Tax hikes simply won’t be possible early in Biden’s first term – they would be crippling to an economy that (if we’re lucky) will just be starting to recover from the shock of the quarantine. They’d also be political suicide. Tax hikes on the poor and middle class would be political suicide. Rolling back tax cuts on the wealthy by at least a decade would be very popular with the Dem base. How, pray tell, would this cripple the economy? Bush Sn said it first and correctly supply side tax cuts are voodoo economics? The tax cuts on the wealthy increased inequity and did not increase jobs. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/53 "2020-05-05T01:55:14Z")
A Tramp-like Biden facing a terrible cash shortfall could persuade Congress to sell ® states to China, if it’ll have them. Can’t sell Alaska back to Russia, or sell Florida to Cuba - insufficient funds. China it is, then. Art IV Sec 3 Par 2: _“The Congress shall have Power to dispose of…the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States…”_ Selling-off US territory - it’s right there! Farewell, Alabama. Be nice to your new owners. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/54 "2020-05-05T01:56:38Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Tax hikes on the poor and middle class would be political suicide. Rolling back tax cuts on the wealthy by at least a decade would be very popular with the Dem base. How, pray tell, would this cripple the economy? Bush Sn said it first and correctly supply side tax cuts are voodoo economics? The tax cuts on the wealthy increased inequity and did not increase jobs. I agree with this post but to increase taxes on the wealthy in any way and certainly to the extent that would be fair would require D control of the WH, Senate and the House. I’ll cross my fingers for this to happen but I ain’t suicidal enough to hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/55 "2020-05-05T16:00:44Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Tax hikes on the poor and middle class would be political suicide. Rolling back tax cuts on the wealthy by at least a decade would be very popular with the Dem base. How, pray tell, would this cripple the economy? Bush Sn said it first and correctly supply side tax cuts are voodoo economics? The tax cuts on the wealthy increased inequity and did not increase jobs. > [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I agree with this post but to increase taxes on the wealthy in any way and certainly to the extent that would be fair would require D control of the WH, Senate and the House. > > I’ll cross my fingers for this to happen but I ain’t suicidal enough to hold my breath. Look, I agree with both of you that “Rolling back tax cuts on the wealthy” is the morally right thing to do. But it’s still raising taxes, and I’ve always understood that the last thing you want to do during a recession or a nascent recovery, from an economic POV, is raise taxes. And it’s political suicide because everyone’s idea of “the wealthy” is different. A lot of people whom tax hikes might hit due to their income level aren’t blueblooded plutocrats but relatively ordinary suburbanites and small business owners – the kind of people who might vote for Biden because Trump is utterly incompetent, but then will turn around and vote R again in 2022 because Biden raised their taxes. Just to be clear, I THINK PEOPLE WHO VOTE THAT WAY ARE SELF-ABSORBED ASSHOLES, but their votes still count, and we need those votes to keep 2022 from being a replay of 2010. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/56 "2020-05-05T17:41:06Z")
_ **Please note that a 10% tax hike on income above $2 million yields far more revenue than a 5% hike on income above $500,000.** _ And that’s even without reducing the tax preference given to capital gains and dividends. Conservatives who repeat the meme that the share of the pie earned by the super-rich is too small to yield much revenue are blowing smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/57 "2020-05-05T17:48:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > he certainly hasn’t “drained the swamp” of Washington like he said he was going to. What do you mean? He drained it of all the crocodiles. He then re-stocked it with piranhas. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2020, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/58 "2020-05-06T05:31:02Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Look, I agree with both of you that “Rolling back tax cuts on the wealthy” is the morally right thing to do. But it’s still raising taxes, and I’ve always understood that the last thing you want to do during a recession or a nascent recovery, from an economic POV, is raise taxes. That is a really simplistic view. Correct that in general you don’t want to raise taxes during a recession. But it’s not a blanket rule across all taxes. Maybe say it this way makes more sense. In recessions, governments see their tax revenue decline. If the government then cuts spending and lays off workers, it is making the recession worse. If the government raises taxes on someone that is investing in building a business (as opposed to a shareholder or a investment fund), then that also is making the recession worse. If the government raises taxes on someone that lives off of a trust fund, and then puts that tax revenue to better use by investing in base infrastructure with a multiplier effect of creating jobs and therefore revenue, net net it’s a good thing. A billionaire that gets a 10% tax cut simply does not go out and buy more pants or other consumable goods. They might buy stocks when the market get’s hammered, or buy a few dozen houses being sold at firesale prices, but none of that activity creates net new jobs nor creates anything net new that benefits the economy or society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2020, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/59 "2020-05-06T06:48:27Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > What do you mean? He drained it of all the crocodiles. > > He then re-stocked it with piranhas. There’s a slogan from my corporate software engineering days: “It’s hard remember your job is to drain the swamp when you’re up to your ass in alligators.” IOW ya gotta work on basic, immediate problems before the big stuff are even approachable. Sure, you can nuke the swamp to dispose of 'gators but there’s not much left afterward. For drainage, Trimp the Chimp is nuking the swamp. Unfortunately, America is “the swamp”. Introduced piranhas won’t find much to feed on. Lesson for parasites: don’t kill your host. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813/60 "2020-05-06T13:51:06Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > That is a really simplistic view. Correct that in general you don’t want to raise taxes during a recession. But it’s not a blanket rule across all taxes. > > Maybe say it this way makes more sense. In recessions, governments see their tax revenue decline. If the government then cuts spending and lays off workers, it is making the recession worse. If the government raises taxes on someone that is investing in building a business (as opposed to a shareholder or a investment fund), then that also is making the recession worse. If the government raises taxes on someone that lives off of a trust fund, and then puts that tax revenue to better use by investing in base infrastructure with a multiplier effect of creating jobs and therefore revenue, net net it’s a good thing. > > A billionaire that gets a 10% tax cut simply does not go out and buy more pants or other consumable goods. They might buy stocks when the market get’s hammered, or buy a few dozen houses being sold at firesale prices, but none of that activity creates net new jobs nor creates anything net new that benefits the economy or society as a whole. Due respect, but I think your view is the simplistic one. You can’t design a tax that only taxes the evil and selfish without also taxing people at the same income level who put their money to productive use. The startup founder making $250,000 and the trust fund slacker making $250,000 get hit the same. Again, I am in favor of raising taxes on these people, and also of eliminating lower tax rates on capital gains. But those tax hikes need to wait until the economy is stronger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-biden-wins-he-will-have-to-make-big-unpopular-tax-increases-in-his-1st-term/852813.md?page=4)