If Biden wins, he will have to make big, unpopular tax increases in his 1st term

[DrDeth]

@Akaj

Due respect, but I think your view is the simplistic one. You can’t design a tax that only taxes the evil and selfish without also taxing people at the same income level who put their money to productive use. The startup founder making $250,000 and the trust fund slacker making $250,000 get hit the same.

Again, I am in favor of raising taxes on these people, and also of eliminating lower tax rates on capital gains. But those tax hikes need to wait until the economy is stronger.

Not really- because there’s this thing called “taxable income”. See, no one is taxed on their gross income. The Federal Income tax is figured on the Taxable income, and there are lots of deductions and credits one can give to make the startup founders TI= 0 and the trust fund slacker TI nearly the whole $250K.

Yes, get rid of differing taxes on Capital gains. Get rid of the trump tax cuts for the rich. That will do to start.

[Akaj]

@DrDeth

Not really- because there’s this thing called “taxable income”. See, no one is taxed on their gross income. The Federal Income tax is figured on the Taxable income, and there are lots of deductions and credits one can give to make the startup founders TI= 0 and the trust fund slacker TI nearly the whole $250K.

Yes, get rid of differing taxes on Capital gains. Get rid of the trump tax cuts for the rich. That will do to start.

I’m aware that people aren’t taxed on gross income. I should have been more clear: “The startup founder with an AGI of $250,000 and the trust fund slacker with an AGI of $250,000 get hit the same.”

Taxing capital gains the same as income would go a long way toward making that situation more equitable.

[DrDeth]

@Akaj

I’m aware that people aren’t taxed on gross income. I should have been more clear: “The startup founder with an AGI of $250,000 and the trust fund slacker with an AGI of $250,000 get hit the same.”

Taxing capital gains the same as income would go a long way toward making that situation more equitable.

Not even AGI. You reduce AGI by below the line deductions, mostly on Sch A, to get TI and then reduce the tax by credits, for example the General Business Credit.

But yes, I concur- there is no reason at all to tax Capital gains at a lower rate.

[Akaj]

@DrDeth

Not even AGI. You reduce AGI by below the line deductions, mostly on Sch A, to get TI and then reduce the tax by credits, for example the General Business Credit.

But yes, I concur- there is no reason at all to tax Capital gains at a lower rate.

OK, OK, I surrender! IANACPA.

I stand by my original points – there’s no plausible way to raise taxes on rich assholes without also raising them on the productive wealthy, and you should not raise taxes on any of them until an economic recovery is on solid footing.

[China_Guy]

Sure there is if you set the bar high enough. 500k annual gross income or 1 million? Raise up the corporate tax rates so Apple doesn’t buy back stock and inflate their share price. Get the revenue into the government, approve public works to repair our third world infrastructure, create jobs and kick start the multiplier effect.

Versus sit on trumpies giveaways to the swamp for the past few years.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Akaj

Look, I agree with both of you that “Rolling back tax cuts on the wealthy” is the morally right thing to do. But it’s still raising taxes, and I’ve always understood that the last thing you want to do during a recession or a nascent recovery, from an economic POV, is raise taxes.

Raising a flat tax would be terribly stupid. Raising the highest marginal tax brackets would be a great idea.

This discussion is generally pointless because so many people don’t understand how marginal taxation works, that it is designed only to target the least-needed money from the least-needy people.

In general I think the US could stand to become competitive by cutting the corporate income tax rate to a small rate. Keep it just large enough to make it worthwhile to take deductions for creating jobs.

Then we should immediately change personal income tax rates by expanding from 7 tax brackets back to the Eisenhower-era 37 marginal tax brackets. With only 7 brackets, the differences are pretty big, and it’s pretty painful when some of your income spills into a higher bracket. Much less painful if the brackets are incrementally smaller. It sounds hard to compute, but if it worked in 1958, it should be even easier in 2020 now that we have electronic computers and stuff.

[RitterSport]

@Barf_Sampson

A graduated income tax is a plank of the communist manifesto and we all know that attempts at communism always end in 10’s of millions of death, starvation, war and ultimate complete collapse. The answer IMO is to trash the Federal Reserve and have an honest money system. Or, at least if we are going to have a fiat money system we should run it instead of the evil foreign bankers at the FED. Why do we pay them interest to lend us money that doesn’t really exist. It is important that we stick with the President right now because we see that the democrats are all in the pockets of the chicoms. The party is completely infiltrated by communist Chinese operatives, many of which have been rounded up by the pentagon earlier this week. As a quick example Dianne Fienstien, who employed chicom spies and low lifes like fake gangster governor Cuomo who constantly defends the chicoms in the corona virus scandal. Hopefully, the democrat traitors who form a chicom 5th column in congress will be routed out and hung sooner than later. But surely HUNG they will be. George Washington would have been hanging traitors all over the place if he were here today. The chicoms are also pushing demoralizing agendas like pushing lgbtq on children and trying to change language with “political correctness”.Depraved Tranny story time etc. Chicom run Universities with Marxist professors pushing a culture of failure they call “social justice” or post modernism. Erroneous sick ideas like minorities can’t be racist. Everyone I know who is truly a racist is a minority. 99.9% of white people never even think about minorities and the last thing they think is that they are better than somebody because of the color of their skin. Sickening. The people who conquer nature and build great civilizations are wasting their time trying to subdue minorities. How ridiculous!!! Also this fake climate change hoax. How stupid and brainwashed can people be. Complete distruction of China may be necessary. Sad.

Welcome to the Straight Dope! Enjoy your stay.

[septimus]

@Barf_Sampson

A graduated income tax is a plank of the communist manifesto and we all know that attempts at communism always end in 10’s of millions of death, starvation, war and ultimate complete collapse.

Cites please. AFAIK neither Lenin nor Stalin nor Pol Pot even implemented a “graduated income tax.”

The answer IMO is to trash the Federal Reserve and have an honest money system. Or, at least if we are going to have a fiat money system we should run it instead of the evil foreign bankers at the FED.

These weirdly-wrong memes are from the 1990’s if not earlier. Still making the rounds?

Why do we pay them interest to lend us money that doesn’t really exist. It is important that we stick with the President right now because we see that the democrats are all in the pockets of the chicoms.

OK. It’s a patriotic post in service of Dear Leader. Yayyy! MAGA!!!

The party is completely infiltrated by communist Chinese operatives … Dianne Fienstien, who employed chicom spies … Cuomo who constantly defends the chicoms … democrat traitors who form a chicom 5th column in congress will be routed out and hung sooner than later. But surely HUNG they will be… The chicoms are also pushing demoralizing agendas like pushing lgbtq on children … ridiculous!!! Also this fake climate change hoax. How stupid and brainwashed can people be. Complete distruction of China may be necessary. Sad.

The emphasis on China is a give-away. Putin’s Russia and Kim’s North Korea are our firm friends now, I guess, with the “p-c” fiat-money printing regimes in France and Germany falling under chicom influence.

On a related matter, nobody has yet posted the numeric solution to
TRUMP × MAGA = GRAFT GAME

[MortSahlFan]

@blindboyard

biden has spent decades trying to cut all of those things. Why would he now increase taxes to pay for them?

[mhendo]

@Barf_Sampson

A graduated income tax is a plank of the communist manifesto…

So is free education for all children in public schools.

@Barf_Sampson

How stupid and brainwashed can people be.

I don’t know. You tell me.

[Akaj]

@Barf_Sampson

A graduated income tax is a plank of the communist manifesto and we all know that attempts at communism always end in 10’s of millions of death, starvation, war and ultimate complete collapse. The answer IMO is to trash the Federal Reserve and have an honest money system. Or, at least if we are going to have a fiat money system we should run it instead of the evil foreign bankers at the FED. Why do we pay them interest to lend us money that doesn’t really exist. It is important that we stick with the President right now because we see that the democrats are all in the pockets of the chicoms. The party is completely infiltrated by communist Chinese operatives, many of which have been rounded up by the pentagon earlier this week. As a quick example Dianne Fienstien, who employed chicom spies and low lifes like fake gangster governor Cuomo who constantly defends the chicoms in the corona virus scandal. Hopefully, the democrat traitors who form a chicom 5th column in congress will be routed out and hung sooner than later. But surely HUNG they will be. George Washington would have been hanging traitors all over the place if he were here today. The chicoms are also pushing demoralizing agendas like pushing lgbtq on children and trying to change language with “political correctness”.Depraved Tranny story time etc. Chicom run Universities with Marxist professors pushing a culture of failure they call “social justice” or post modernism. Erroneous sick ideas like minorities can’t be racist. Everyone I know who is truly a racist is a minority. 99.9% of white people never even think about minorities and the last thing they think is that they are better than somebody because of the color of their skin. Sickening. The people who conquer nature and build great civilizations are wasting their time trying to subdue minorities. How ridiculous!!! Also this fake climate change hoax. How stupid and brainwashed can people be. Complete distruction of China may be necessary. Sad.

Don’t feed the troll!

[DrDeth]

@HMS_Irruncible

…
This discussion is generally pointless because so many people don’t understand how marginal taxation works, that it is designed only to target the least-needed money from the least-needy people.
.

Then we should immediately change personal income tax rates by expanding from 7 tax brackets back to the Eisenhower-era 37 marginal tax brackets. …

Yes, and the difference between Gross income and Taxable income.

Good points.

Also, take off the cap on FICA taxes to save SocSec.

[China_Guy]

@MortSahlFan

You tell 'em.

Republicans - the pious party of cut taxes and increase spending

[RioRico]

@China_Guy

Republicans - the pious party of cut taxes and increase spending

And gather generous Russian donations.

[DrDeth]

@blindboyard

Biden has spent decades trying to cut all of those things. Why would he now increase taxes to pay for them?

Cut what things? You dont mean SocSec? Not that old canard again? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Biden did exactly what he is gonna have to do when his is President and the GOP starts whining about the deficit again- something they only care about when the democrats are running things. He called their bluff and they blinked.

Biden has never, ever been in favor of cutting SocSec. Sanders lied his ass off.

And Bidens platform now is strongly in favor of strengthening Socsec.

[Sdowiat]

Seriously- To all of you who think that taxes SHOULD be raised: Why don’t you lead by example and just go ahead and send in some extra $ each year? There’s a place right there on the form to do that…

THEN come tell everyone that you believe in that strong enough that you are ALREADY DOING IT and advocate that we should do it as well? I know I’d pay a lot more attention to someone who can demonstrate that believe something enough to just go do it than someone who won’t. And I know I DON’T tend to listen to people who advocate something that they themselves are unwilling to do.

Or is it that YOU really don’t want to pay additional ( and don’t think that you would have to ) and what you really want is for EVERYONE ELSE ( especially those folks you consider “Rich” ) to be forced to pay more?

[China_Guy]

@Sdowiat

Seriously- To all of you who think that taxes SHOULD be raised: Why don’t you lead by example and just go ahead and send in some extra $ each year? There’s a place right there on the form to do that…

This is an asinine argument. This is a public good, not an individual effort. The country as a whole has to come together and responsibly raise the money needed to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure while reducing the wealth gap. What’s needed is a lot more than me donating $10,000 to the government or a food bank or my favorite pizza place. Or trying to tin cup my way around the neighborhood to raise money to resurface the roads, or build a new classroom.

[Urbanredneck]

@TonySinclair

But there is no need to raise taxes on anyone making less than six figures.

This last year was the first time my wife and I broke the $100k mark. We are not wealthy and dont want more taxes.

[DrDeth]

@Urbanredneck

This last year was the first time my wife and I broke the $100k mark. We are not wealthy and dont want more taxes.

And you wont, because you arent taxed on your gross, but on your net that is Taxable income, which is far less than that.

Let us say we took this current tax rate schedule:

IRS 2020 Tax Tables, Deductions, & Exemptions — purposeful.finance

And increased the top four brackets, making the last bracket 50% instead of 37%.

The lowest of the top four is $171,000-$326K, taxed now at 24%- let us put that back to 28%.

So in order for you two to pay more taxes you’d have to more than double your income, likely have to triple it. And when that happy day occurred, only the TAXABLE income over $171K would be taxed a extra 4%.

So, here’s the deal- we will triple your income to around $300K, but on the last 50K of it, you have to pay an extra 4%. Would you go for that? In other words, if you were earning an extra $200000, would you cheerfully pay a EXTRA $2000 in taxes?

$100K TI for a married couple isnt rich or even close to it. but $300K? Well, maybe not rich, but certainly well off.

[Sdowiat]

@China_Guy

This is an asinine argument. This is a public good, not an individual effort. The country as a whole has to come together and responsibly raise the money needed to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure while reducing the wealth gap. What’s needed is a lot more than me donating $10,000 to the government or a food bank or my favorite pizza place. Or trying to tin cup my way around the neighborhood to raise money to resurface the roads, or build a new classroom.

But they WOULD be more LIKELY to come together if you LEAD by example. Put your money where your mouth is! Then come tell us about it.