# If Bill Gates Lost $12 Billion... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436 "2013-05-03T18:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/41 "2013-05-04T22:24:21Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Here’s where you make your first mistake. Perhaps, but I was under the impression that income/wealth inequality isn’t just bad it’s Startlingly Bad!. _“The middle class continues to merge with the lower class to form a single large peasant class.”_ That sounds pretty bad to me. So here is an opportunity for the top 0.01% to lose a significant amount of money, surely that will make things better. It shouldn’t be a difficult question to answer. I’d just like to know how this large peasant class will be better off now that Bill Gates has less money. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/42 "2013-05-04T22:30:24Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > If you are going to pose a hypothesis about wealth/income inequality, get your facts straight first. What facts weren’t straight? I didn’t not say or allege that all of Gate’s wealth was tied up in his MSFT shares, in fact I was very clear about that. It is also a fact that he owns shares of MSFT, and that if the stock price falls he’ll lose a lot of wealth. So the question stands, how does his loss make the rest of society better off? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/43 "2013-05-04T22:32:48Z")
As postulated, it doesn’t. Thread over. New topic. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/44 "2013-05-04T22:39:42Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So here is an opportunity for the top 0.01% to lose a significant amount of money, surely that will make things better. It shouldn’t be a difficult question to answer. I’d just like to know how this large peasant class will be better off now that Bill Gates has less money. They won’t. The loss is too small to make a significant difference to the power imbalance, and it’s postulated as pure loss; Gates loses, but no one else gains. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/45 "2013-05-04T22:41:58Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > MSFT also pays a quarterly dividend of $0.23 cents per share, which would pay him about $477 million per year. For anyone that’s curious: when taxed at 15% that’s $71.55 million in lost Federal taxes if the dividend gets cancelled (assuming he has qualified dividends). And something fun to do on the back of a napkin: I believe right now MSFT has 8,351 million shares issued, which with a dividend paying $0.23 quarterly, taxed at 15% (again assuming qualified dividends) would translate into about $1.1 billion in federal taxes. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/46 "2013-05-04T22:44:24Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Let’s say, hypothetically, that people finally get sick of Windows, that Windows 9 is a total flop, and the company starts to sink. The share price falls to $10, and they cancel the dividend. If the Microsoft monopoly empire falls, it opens up the marketplace to much greater innovation, competition, and software freedom than currently exists. That is all I care about. I wish neither ill nor good to Bill Gates nor his fortune, and frankly I don’t care if angels wash his balls every day. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/47 "2013-05-04T22:51:48Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If the Microsoft monopoly empire falls, it opens up the marketplace to much greater innovation, competition, and software freedom than currently exists. I doubt it. I understand the maunderings of the undergrad, open-source, freeware, money-is-evil and corporate-standards-are-slavery crowd. Really I do. But fragmenting a market never benefits anyone except those who (surprise) manage to claw their way to dominance in the “leveled playing field.” Having Microsoft and Windows implode would mean several years of confusion, halting progress and costing billions until someone else took a dominant role again - and there is no question, at all, that someone would. And some minority, or collection of minorities, would start the same whining about dominance and oppression because _they_ didn’t get the throne. Revolutions always say they’re about equality; what they’re really about (or end up being) is replacing the top dog with another one. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/48 "2013-05-04T23:38:10Z")
I’d say that the trouble with inequality is that if your economy is growing and only 1% of people are getting the increase, your economy is broken. A government, in my opinion, should set policy that improves the lives of as many of its citizens as possible. If only a small segment get the increases, that’s a failure and needs to be addressed. The reason the opening post in this thread is so senseless, is that it presumes that hitting one rich person with a rolled up newspaper somehow fixes the systemic failures that brought about the inequality in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/49 "2013-05-04T23:58:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d say that the trouble with inequality is that if your economy is growing and only 1% of people are getting the increase, your economy is broken. > > A government, in my opinion, should set policy that improves the lives of as many of its citizens as possible. If only a small segment get the increases, that’s a failure and needs to be addressed. > > The reason the opening post in this thread is so senseless, is that _it presumes that hitting one rich person with a rolled up newspaper somehow fixes the systemic failures that brought about the inequality in the first place._ More to the point, it presumes that people (either in general, or Dopers specifically) with progressive opinions about economics presume that. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/50 "2013-05-05T00:17:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > More to the point, it presumes that people (either in general, or Dopers specifically) with progressive opinions about economics presume that. Very true. He’s got a buffoonish cartoon-version of what he thinks liberals must think like. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/51 "2013-05-05T02:34:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d say that the trouble with inequality is that if your economy is growing and only 1% of people are getting the increase, your economy is broken. > > A government, in my opinion, should set policy that improves the lives of as many of its citizens as possible. If only a small segment get the increases, that’s a failure and needs to be addressed. > > The reason the opening post in this thread is so senseless, is that it presumes that hitting one rich person with a rolled up newspaper somehow fixes the systemic failures that brought about the inequality in the first place. What if the failure is primarily due to technology? If a billion dollar company only needs 40 employees, how is that a “problem” to be solved? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/52 "2013-05-05T02:51:31Z")
The problem is that some people seem to have confused free market capitalism with plutocracy. Free market capitalism (which is the idea these people profess to believe) says that people rise _and fall_ based on their abilities. So Bill Gates made money when he made good financial decisions and he lost money when he made bad financial decisions. Somebody else who was making better decisions pulled ahead of Gates in the financial competition. The system is supposed to take money away from rich people when they make mistakes. Of course, rich people don’t see the merits of this. They (and their fanboys) may pay lip service to free market capitalism but what they really want is plutocracy. They want a system where rich people stay rich. A generous plutocrat might be willing to admit new members to the rich man’s club - but no plutocrat wants to see any rich man getting kicked out. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/53 "2013-05-05T02:53:07Z")
Which is why libertarians are right that the government should not pick winners and losers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/54 "2013-05-05T03:17:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is why libertarians are right that the government should not pick winners and losers. I agree. But the wealthy shouldn’t pick winners and losers either. Because they’ll pick themselves as winners, even if somebody else had a better score. To expand on the sports metaphor, the government shouldn’t decide who wins or loses the game and shouldn’t be out there playing the game. But the government should act as the commissioner and the referees to enforce the rules and make sure nobody’s cheating. Libertarians are right that the government should not pick winners and losers. But libertarians are wrong when they say it’s okay for the players to officiate their own games. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/55 "2013-05-05T03:34:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What if the failure is primarily due to technology? If a billion dollar company only needs 40 employees, how is that a “problem” to be solved? A specific outcome isn’t necessarily right or wrong. A system that consistently concentrates all societal gains into the hands of a very few is broken. Everyone is trying to maximize their income. If only a few percent rise while everyone treads water, that’s a problem. Can you agree with that? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/56 "2013-05-05T04:11:39Z")
It’s a problem, but it’s easier to correct artificial causes than natural ones. If the system is rigged, it can be unrigged. If it’s not rigged, then you have to rig it to somehow be “fairer” which is something beyond mere human abilities. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/57 "2013-05-05T04:19:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s a problem, but it’s easier to correct artificial causes than natural ones. If the system is rigged, it can be unrigged. If it’s not rigged, then you have to rig it to somehow be “fairer” which is something beyond mere human abilities. That’s nonsense. First, all economic systems are rigged. That goes with them being made up out of self interested humans. And second, it is _most certainly_ possible for a system to be “rigged” to be fairer; that’s the norm in any civilized society. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/58 "2013-05-05T04:20:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s a problem, but it’s easier to correct artificial causes than natural ones. If the system is rigged, it can be unrigged. If it’s not rigged, then you have to rig it to somehow be “fairer” which is something beyond mere human abilities. Not necessarily. It’s, in my opinion, currently rigged for the rich. That wasn’t beyond our abilities. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/59 "2013-05-05T04:37:48Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > As for what conservative ideas can contribute, something needs to be done about the sky-rocketing rates of Americans on disability, where people trade not having to work for lifetime low income. I have heard of these things called “good paying jobs” that might make a good substitute for disability funds, but there don’t seem to be many of them around nowadays. A pity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/60 "2013-05-05T04:56:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s nonsense. First, all economic systems are rigged. That goes with them being made up out of self interested humans. And second, it is _most certainly_ possible for a system to be “rigged” to be fairer; that’s the norm in any civilized society. Rigging something to advantage one group over another is child’s play. Rigging something to be fair to all is impossible. In reality, what many Americans want is a system rigged to benefit the middle class at the expense of the poor and rich alike. Most people see their interests in the most virtuous light. We already treat labor differently from all other services. Whereas a doctor does not have the right to patients and a lawyer does not have the right to clients, we often consider all people who desire to work as having a right to a good job somehow. Furthermore, labor is exempt from anti-trust laws and labor is protected by price controls as well. Why do we do this? Because most people are laborers, and so laborers see what they sell as special and deserving of special protections in the system not available to those who sell other goods or services. And despite all this, wealth inequality grows. Many libertarians would make the case that it’s precisely because the system tried to be rigged in favor of labor that labor was harmed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436.md?page=4)