# If Bill Gates Lost $12 Billion... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436 "2013-05-03T18:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/61 "2013-05-05T04:58:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I have heard of these things called “good paying jobs” that might make a good substitute for disability funds, but there don’t seem to be many of them around nowadays. A pity. First, disability is not unemployment or a substitute for getting a job. It’s strictly for people too disabled to work. Second, good paying jobs in the 21st century require a lot more from the worker than the good paying jobs of the 20th century. More education, more hours, more dedication, more initiative. Precisely the kinds of attributes the system tried to make unnecessary and even discourage when organized labor was at its peak of power. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/62 "2013-05-05T05:01:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Rigging something to advantage one group over another is child’s play. Rigging something to be fair to all is impossible. In reality, what many Americans want is a system rigged to benefit the middle class at the expense of the poor and rich alike. Most people see their interests in the most virtuous light. Being perfectly fair is probably impossible. Being much more fair than we are, is likely not that hard. > [@](#): > > We already treat labor differently from all other services. Whereas a doctor does not have the right to patients and a lawyer does not have the right to clients, we often consider all people who desire to work as having a right to a good job somehow. Furthermore, labor is exempt from anti-trust laws and labor is protected by price controls as well. Why do we do this? Because most people are laborers, and so laborers see what they sell as special and deserving of special protections in the system not available to those who sell other goods or services. > > And despite all this, wealth inequality grows. Many libertarians would make the case that it’s precisely because the system tried to be rigged in favor of labor that labor was harmed. Many libertarians would be totally wrong. The world of the 19th century and child laborers and flammable lakes isn’t what we should be shooting for. Other countries provide examples of better labor laws that don’t destroy freedom. Whatever that means. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/63 "2013-05-05T05:09:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Being perfectly fair is probably impossible. Being much more fair than we are, is likely not that hard. There’s always ways we can make things better. There are still many situations where the little guy gets screwed. But the biggest ways this used to happen have all been rectified, making the remaining changes just things we can do at the margins. Before I mentioned that personal relationships mattered more than money. That’s true at the bottom as well as the top. It’s very hard to make it without knowing people. Most jobs are filled through networking. That’s something we could use ideas on how to change. > [@](#): > > Many libertarians would be totally wrong. The world of the 19th century and child laborers and flammable lakes isn’t what we should be shooting for. Other countries provide examples of better labor laws that don’t destroy freedom. Whatever that means. Those changes were made to solve real problems, but labor has been unable to change with the times, so it’s getting left behind. It won’t be long before labor isn’t even needed in many industries. Except for highly skilled labor. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/64 "2013-05-05T06:03:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Rigging something to advantage one group over another is child’s play. Rigging something to be fair to all is impossible. Perfectly fair, of course not. But it can be made much more fair that it will be if you leave it alone. > [@adaher](#): > > We already treat labor differently from all other services. Whereas a doctor does not have the right to patients and a lawyer does not have the right to clients, we often consider all people who desire to work as having a right to a good job somehow. Furthermore, labor is exempt from anti-trust laws and labor is protected by price controls as well. Why do we do this? Because most people are laborers, and so laborers see what they sell as special and deserving of special protections in the system not available to those who sell other goods or services. > > And despite all this, wealth inequality grows. That’s a hugely inaccurate description of America. In America everything is grossly tilted to favor the wealthy, and labor is treated like garbage. And far from being treated as “special”, the common workers are regarded as vermin, usually even by themselves. > [@adaher](#): > > Many libertarians would make the case that it’s precisely because the system tried to be rigged in favor of labor that labor was harmed. Libertarian = wrong, virtually every time. It’s one of the most relentlessly wrong belief systems out there. Both factually _and_ morally. > [@adaher](#): > > But the biggest ways this used to happen have all been rectified, making the remaining changes just things we can do at the margins. Nonsense. America has always lagged behind in worker’s rights, environmental law and so on, and what reforms have been made have been drastically rolled back. America is much closer to the Gilded Age than it is to your Socialist America fantasy. And libertarianism is about the worst possible way to solve any of those problems; it is, ultimately, designed to encourage and enable such problems, not solve them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/65 "2013-05-05T06:33:06Z")
If the system is rigged against the worker, how come the worker is entitled to a minimum wage? Doctors aren’t. Video store owners aren’t. Why are unions allowed to represent an entire industry, in other words why are they exempt from anti-trust laws? In both cases, it’s to give them an advantage. America does lag in workers’ rights, but I don’t see how that’s a curse given how instrumental labor market inflexibility has been in Europe’s troubles. France especially. They are spiralling straight into third world status. I also can’t help but notice that most proposed laws to give workers more rights involve giving unions more rights, and workers less right to say “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/66 "2013-05-05T07:31:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the system is rigged against the worker, how come the worker is entitled to a minimum wage? Doctors aren’t. Video store owners aren’t. :rolleyes: Of course they are entitled to a minimum wage. They just make far more than it. > [@adaher](#): > > Why are unions allowed to represent an entire industry, in other words why are they exempt from anti-trust laws? Because such laws were never meant to apply to them? Unions aren’t businesses. And unions barely exist any more, anyway. > [@adaher](#): > > America does lag in workers’ rights, but I don’t see how that’s a curse given how instrumental labor market inflexibility has been in Europe’s troubles. On the contrary, Europe’s troubles are largely due to the mania for austerity. And I fail to see how crushing the majority of the population of a country is good for them or for the country. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/67 "2013-05-05T07:53:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Of course they are entitled to a minimum wage. They just make far more than it. In practice, most do, but there is no law guaranteeing them anything. Doctors can and do lose money on their practices. They are only entitled to a minimum wage if they work for an employer. > [@](#): > > Because such laws were never meant to apply to them? Unions aren’t businesses. And unions barely exist any more, anyway. That’s my point, labor is regarded as different even though it’s not. It’s just another thing that people sell. A union is a labor cartel and it’s anticompetitive by design. At least nationally. Internationally it has to compete, and it doesn’t do it very well. > [@](#): > > On the contrary, Europe’s troubles are largely due to the mania for austerity. And I fail to see how crushing the majority of the population of a country is good for them or for the country. France hasn’t done austerity at all. Actually, no countries have except for Ireland, Spain, the Baltic Republics, and Greece. Britain, France, Italy, Sweden, Germany, etc. have increased spending since the recession. And France’s employment problem has been a longstanding issue. You can’t fire people, so why hire people? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/68 "2013-05-05T15:13:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the system is rigged against the worker, how come the worker is entitled to a minimum wage? Doctors aren’t. Video store owners aren’t. > > Why are unions allowed to represent an entire industry, in other words why are they exempt from anti-trust laws? > > In both cases, it’s to give them an advantage. As was already pointed out, doctors are entitled to a minimum wage. It’s a moot issue because their actual wages are high above the set minimum. But a hospital couldn’t pay a doctor two dollars an hour even if it found one willing to work for that. Union laws aren’t designed to give workers an advantage. They’re designed to equalize the situation. Management already speaks with a single voice. Unions allow the workers to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/69 "2013-05-05T15:26:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > First, disability is not unemployment or a substitute for getting a job. It’s strictly for people too disabled to work. > > Second, good paying jobs in the 21st century require a lot more from the worker than the good paying jobs of the 20th century. More education, more hours, more dedication, more initiative. Precisely the kinds of attributes the system tried to make unnecessary and even discourage when organized labor was at its peak of power. It doesn’t really matter to the unemployed, does it? Do you think if they were to read your words they would suddenly realize they were useless in the modern system and off themselves, singing hymns of praise to Ayn Rand as they did so? Nope, as George Bernard Shaw had Eliza Doolittle’s father say in Pygmalion a century or so ago, “The undeserving poor needs to eat as much as the deserving poor … and they drinks quite a bit more!” People will survive however they can, like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/70 "2013-05-05T15:26:20Z")
I’m not arguing about unions representing a company’s workers. I’m talking about unions representing a whole industry. Ford and Chrysler’s unions should be competing with each other the same way Ford and Chrysler do. Instead, they collude. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/71 "2013-05-05T15:27:22Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > It doesn’t really matter to the unemployed, does it? Do you think if they were to read your words they would suddenly realize they were useless in the modern system and off themselves, singing hymns of praise to Ayn Rand as they did so? Nope, as George Bernard Shaw had Eliza Doolittle’s father say in Pygmalion a century or so ago, “The undeserving poor needs to eat as much as the deserving poor … and they drinks quite a bit more!” > > People will survive however they can, like it or not. What matters is what the voters think. If the voters believe disability is the new unemployment, only more permanent, it will be taken away in fairly short order. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/72 "2013-05-05T17:49:26Z")
It depends on how Bill Gates lost his $12 billion. In his home city of Seattle, there are about 600,000 people of which 60,000 are living below the poverty line. If his $12 billion were evenly distributed among the them, this would amount to about $200,000 for every poor man, woman, and child in Seattle. If this money was given as $3000 per month, it’d supplement their own income for 5.5 years. No liberal thinks that you can deprive money from the rich and that income inequality will vanish, but if you take that money and spend it on useful things, you can do a lot to reduce the amount of suffering and give people opportunities to rise up. As for the people here who are saying income inequality is not bad: WTF? There are plethora of peer-reviewed scholarly articles and a host of books that shows that income inequality is a bad thing. If it’s not a bad thing, then my golly, tell us what’s _good_ about it. Because history has shown me that income inequality typically starts with higher crime and riots and then ends with the poor people dragging the rich people into the street and killing them. What has history shown you? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/73 "2013-05-05T17:55:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > France hasn’t done austerity at all. Actually, no countries have except for Ireland, Spain, the Baltic Republics, and Greece. Britain, France, Italy, Sweden, Germany, etc. have increased spending since the recession. And France’s employment problem has been a longstanding issue. You can’t fire people, so why hire people? Adaher, austerity isn’t just defined as “increase in spending” or “decrease in spending” that’s kind of a Fox News way of looking at it. Most, if not all of these countries, have had to reduce the amount of government employees, sell off state assets, privatize profitable businesses, increase in taxes, reduction of retirement and pension benefits, etc etc. Some of these countries have nearly 30% unemployment, I’m surprised they haven’t had a revolution yet. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/74 "2013-05-05T18:56:07Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > …if you take that money and spend it on useful things, you can do a lot to reduce the amount of suffering and give people opportunities to rise up. By and large, that’s what B&M Gates have been doing for quite some time. I think they’re entitled to be selective and control the distribution; simply scattering money to the winds isn’t likely to get desirable results. I also note Gates is still widely reviled while a far, far, far less “beneficial” person is all but up for the first stage of sainthood. There’s marketing for ya. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/75 "2013-05-06T01:37:19Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > As for the people here who are saying income inequality is not bad: WTF? There are plethora of peer-reviewed scholarly articles and a host of books that shows that income inequality is a bad thing. If it’s not a bad thing, then my golly, tell us what’s _good_ about it. Because history has shown me that income inequality typically starts with higher crime and riots and then ends with the poor people dragging the rich people into the street and killing them. What has history shown you? > > - Honesty High poverty is a bad thing. A prosperous, comfortable middle class is not going to riot and kill people. “Tuesday? No, my kids’ got soccer practice. Thursday? Ah, that’s bad too, see I have a dinner meeting with a client. Saturday? I go to the beach on the weekend!” And they certainly aren’t going to throw away their comfortable lives just because Bill Gates is really, really, rich. Perhaps you think the 15% of Americans who are poor will riot. If you think the vast middle class is going to join them, you’ll be disappointed. The middle class will turn their guns on the poor, not the rich. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/76 "2013-05-06T01:39:09Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Adaher, austerity isn’t just defined as “increase in spending” or “decrease in spending” that’s kind of a Fox News way of looking at it. Most, if not all of these countries, have had to reduce the amount of government employees, sell off state assets, privatize profitable businesses, increase in taxes, reduction of retirement and pension benefits, etc etc. Some of these countries have nearly 30% unemployment, I’m surprised they haven’t had a revolution yet. Those countries with 30% unemployment are broke. Austerity was forced on them by reality. The rest of Europe has chose to raise taxes, mostly, while keeping spending high. It’s not like any of those countries can just borrow a trillion dollars like we can. If they’d spent more wisely in the good years, then they could have done proper stimulus in the bad years. They didn’t, so they can’t, and THAT’s the cause of their problems. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/77 "2013-05-06T19:33:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Those countries with 30% unemployment are broke. Austerity was forced on them by reality. > > The rest of Europe has chose to raise taxes, mostly, while keeping spending high. It’s not like any of those countries can just borrow a trillion dollars like we can. If they’d spent more wisely in the good years, then they could have done proper stimulus in the bad years. They didn’t, so they can’t, and THAT’s the cause of their problems. In Spain the increase in unemployment came after austerity. And the crisis causing it was not due to government overspending, but the rush of private money into the country causing a housing bubble. The the government had to bail out the banks. Compare economic growth in the US versus England, which is practicing austerity and has control of its currency. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/78 "2013-05-06T19:44:18Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > What facts weren’t straight? I didn’t not say or allege that all of Gate’s wealth was tied up in his MSFT shares, in fact I was very clear about that. It is also a fact that he owns shares of MSFT, and that if the stock price falls he’ll lose a lot of wealth. > > So the question stands, how does his loss make the rest of society better off? You guys love to use Bill Gates as an example - someone who actually created wealth, now devotes his money to charity, and who left at the top. How about [url\http://www.forbes.com/profile/steve-ballmer/]Steve Ballmer. He still has $15.2 billion, but if MSFT tanks it will be his fault. If he lost a bunch of billions of bucks, don’t you think it would be useful in demonstrating that his actions have consequences? How about our friend Leo A., formerly at HP who came in for 10 months as CEO, screwed up right and left, destroyed stockholder value, and left with an immense parting gift. How about the well paid members of the HP board who hired this turkey and approved of his actions? Rich guys did lose a lot of money in 2009 when the market tanked. So did everyone else. When we talk about improving income equality, we’re not talking about destroying their and everyone elses wealth, we’re talking about moving some of it to those who need it more, and to things like infrastructure projects which can help everyone. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/79 "2013-05-07T00:38:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In Spain the increase in unemployment came after austerity. And the crisis causing it was not due to government overspending, but the rush of private money into the country causing a housing bubble. The the government had to bail out the banks. > Compare economic growth in the US versus England, which is practicing austerity and has control of its currency. In Spain, you’re right, but that’s the only one. Greece overspent and got into too much debt, as did Italy and Britain. Spain’s problem was the Euro. The common currency was a diplomatic solution to a diplomatic problem, not an economic solution, and now they are paying the price. France is a classic case of tax, spend, and regulate your economy into oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436/80 "2013-05-07T02:29:27Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If his $12 billion were evenly distributed among the them, this would amount to about $200,000 for every poor man, woman, and child in Seattle. Well, sure, if someone were to take his money, that person would certainly be better off. Then again, dishing out that much money might just drive up prices (ie rent and shiny rims) meaning no one is actually better off. But that wasn’t the question. I’d like to know how you’d personally be better off. Remember what you said, "As for the people here who are saying income inequality is not bad: WTF? " Lowering Gates’ wealth and income will improve income/wealth inequality. So if it’s such a bad thing, why isn’t your life better after he goes broke (or in this case has fewer billions)? > [@Honesty](#): > > Because history has shown me that income inequality typically starts with higher crime and riots and then ends with the poor people dragging the rich people into the street and killing them. What has history shown you? I’m not sure when the last time poor people in the US dragged rich people out into the street, do you? Are they about to? And lastly, would they be less likely too if Bill Gates lost a lot of money? That’s the question here. If you blame inequality for all that, then when Gates loses a bunch of money, all those poor people should be happier, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bill-gates-lost-12-billion/657436.md?page=5)