# If Bush is so religious, why doesn't he join a congregation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565 "2004-10-11T03:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/1 "2004-10-11T03:20:26Z")
Unlike Carter and Clinton, GWBush declined to join a congregation in DC, although he apparently meets with the Camp David chaplain every now and then. Why? [The issue is not security](http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=vKO1twmWG2Uvnyi2qoWQfW%3D%3D): Clinton and Carter were both active in their churches (Foundry Methodist and Baptist, respectively); Carter even taught Sunday school on occasion. Furthermore, Bush has kept shorter hours than both of the Democratic Presidents: I understand that GWB has spent approximately 1/3 of the Presidency on vacation (working vacation, I presume). I posed this question in another thread: I put it here to avoid hijacking it further. **DoctorJ** noted that intra-Protestant spats can get pretty nasty: “If Bush attends church, he is placed into the position of defending that church’s theological and political positions. What’s worse, Bush’s stated denom is Methodist, and they’ve had some fairly liberal positions (as they go). Actually picking a church and attending it would bring those issues to the forefront–not good for someone whose continued political success depends on every old-regular hard shell Baptist showing up to vote for him.” I dunno. It seems that W has already picked his religion -he just doesn’t like going to church regularly. I speculated that church makes him uncomfortable: after all, the President has a relatively narrow comfort zone for a politician. Regular church going might make him uneasy. Of course, one can be a good Christian without going to church. And I should note that every now and then W drops by the Episcopal church near the White House. But wouldn’t a good Christian want to be part of a larger spiritual community? Perhaps, like Reagan, GWBush really isn’t particularly religious. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/2 "2004-10-11T03:38:22Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Unlike Carter and Clinton, GWBush declined to join a congregation in DC, although he apparently meets with the Camp David chaplain every now and then. > > Why? As I said in the other thread > [@](#): > > Why should Bush attend church and talk to God with the hoi polloi, when God talks directly with him in the privacy of the Oval office? On Law and Order tonight the story was about a priest who killed someone because he said God had told him to do it. He didn’t get away with it. Made me think of Bush though, as, according to him, God told him to attack Iraq [among other things]. > Do the American people really believe that Bush is getting instructions from God? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/3 "2004-10-11T03:57:04Z")
If Bush is as religious as he claims, why does he ignore the commandments against killing, bearing false witness, stealing, and coveting thy neighbors’ goods? ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/4 "2004-10-11T04:28:37Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > If Bush is as religious as he claims, why does he ignore the commandments against killing, bearing false witness, stealing, and coveting thy neighbors’ goods? Because, in one of their conversations, God told him that they don’t apply to him, only other people??? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/5 "2004-10-11T04:31:09Z")
So now GW _isn’t_ very religious? I wish you guys would make up your minds. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/6 "2004-10-11T05:25:02Z")
Hm. That’s what we’re trying to figure out here **Brutus**. Perhaps I wasn’t clear. It’s _possible_ that W’s appeals to religion are a cheap way to garner votes. Maybe he’s full of religious rhetoric but lacks internal piety. Remember, during the 2000 campaign Bush extolled the value of faith-based organizations to address all sorts of social ills. He believes they are terrific institutions for people other than himself. Same with the Vietnam War of course: he supported it, advocated it, loved it up to the point of participating in it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/7 "2004-10-11T05:38:05Z")
Snarks aside, readers of _A Man Of Faith : The Spiritual Journey of George W. Bush_, _The Faith of George Bush_, _May God Bless America: George W. Bush and Biblical Morality_ or other guides to W’s spiritual life may have some insight into this issue. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/8 "2004-10-11T05:43:03Z")
GeeDubya belongs to a little-known, and dimly understood branch of Protestantism known as the _Methodists_. Being such a small sub-group, perhaps there are no Methodist churches available. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/9 "2004-10-11T08:57:55Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > If Bush is so religious, why doesn’t he join a congregation?. Maybe he belongs to a sect that thinks attending church is not necessary. You can “talk” directly to God in your prayers, and you can be a person who does good deeds, and that is sufficient; you don’t have to go to church. From [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) > [@](#): > > Only Christ is a mediator between God and man > … > the Protestants argued that every believer is a priest and obtains reconciliation with God through faith in Jesus Christ, alone I’m not a Protestant so I don’t know what they feel about church attendance, and also, Bush himself never said that church attendance is not important. Anyway, just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/10 "2004-10-11T09:55:50Z")
Perhaps he doesn’t want his local church taken over by the Secret Service detail? ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/11 "2004-10-11T12:21:13Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Maybe he belongs to a sect that thinks attending church is not necessary. You can “talk” directly to God in your prayers, and you can be a person who does good deeds, and that is sufficient; you don’t have to go to church. Somehow the words ‘George Bush’ and ‘good deeds’ don’t seem to fit in the same sentence. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/12 "2004-10-11T14:06:21Z")
Somehow this aspect of W doesn’t particularly add to my various complaints about him. However, to take the generous view, I can just imagine him being indeed as moved by religious feelings as he claims, but finding that no particular congregation really fits him. Sure, he’s a nominal Methodist, but modern American Protestantism tends to be characterized by a high denominational fluidity. And just like a large segment of American Catholicism, a large segment of American Protestantism enthusiastically follows “Cafeteria Theology”, an a-la-carte pick-and-choose scheme of what doctrines and traditions they accept. This is very influenced also by how the American culture exalts the individual over the collective. OTO(and less generous)H, as a major political player appealing to the evangelicals, he has to tread lightly in identifying himself with one particular congregation; all the while projecting that he IS a conservative Christian and supports the evangelicals’ social agenda. Opportunistic? Sure, but he _is_ a politician playing to his base, I do not expect better of him, any more than I expect Kerry to say anything other than that he follows Catholic teachings personally but not ecessarily in his official duties. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/13 "2004-10-11T15:17:17Z")
So did he attend chuch regularaly as Gov. of Texas? I doubt steping on this congregation or that congregations toes would have been as much as a concern as Gov. Someone must have looked into this at some point in the last 5 yrs. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/14 "2004-10-11T15:26:44Z")
I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he might be too busy. But he does go on occasion, and in the photos of these times you see him toting a Bible. Why? Does he actually read it during church? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/15 "2004-10-11T15:45:55Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Maybe he belongs to a sect that thinks attending church is not necessary. You can “talk” directly to God in your prayers, and you can be a person who does good deeds, and that is sufficient; you don’t have to go to church. > … > > I’m not a Protestant so I don’t know what they feel about church attendance, and also, Bush himself never said that church attendance is not important. Anyway, just a thought. Most Protestants I know cite the following passage in support of the proposition that church attendance is either mandatory or strongly encouraged: > [@](#): > > Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. > > [Hebrews 10:25](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+10:25&language=english&version=KJV) Then too, there is the requirement of communion (or “the Lord’s Supper” as it is called by some Protestants). [“This do in remembrance of me.”](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+22:18-20&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) does not sound like optional language. Bush is a vote-grubbing hypocrite just like Reagan was. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/16 "2004-10-11T16:01:09Z")
In **Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them** (p. 208-210 from the hardcover), Al Franken recounts the time he attended the White House Correspondents Dinner and bumped into Don Evans. For thosewho don’t know, Don Evans is the guy who’s widely reports as having goaded then-recoveering alcoholic George W. Bush into attending a “scriptural boot camp” for _two years,_ studying the works of Luke – Acts and the Gospels – from the New Testament. Except, of course, when Franken quizzes Evans about Luke’s Acts, Evans was totally clueless as to what Acts was about. Then when Franken asks Evans to reconcile the liberal, tolerant, near-socialist, the-rich-should-share-their-wealth-with-the-poor aspects of Luke with Bush’s unfair tax cuts, Evans misattributes Jesus’ Parable of the Talents to Luke (which was actually in Matthew). As Franken writes, “What do you suppose those ten guys were really doing during their ‘spiritual boot camp’? Watching football? Eating pretzels? Plotting with Karl Rove how to use religious rhetoric to reassure the Christian right base that George W. was one of them?” Any devout Bible readers want to try and reconcile the teachings of Luke with the actions of the Bush Administration? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/17 "2004-10-11T16:05:41Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Then too, there is the requirement of communion (or “the Lord’s Supper” as it is called by some Protestants). [“This do in remembrance of me.”](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+22:18-20&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) does not sound like optional language. Strictly speaking, he doesn’t say how often “This do in remembrance of me”. That is, where does it say that you have to do it every Sunday? Or that you have to do it in church? > [@](#): > > Bush is a vote-grubbing hypocrite just like Reagan was. I would say vote-grubbing asshole, because I don’t have enough proof that he’s a hypocrite on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/18 "2004-10-11T16:14:21Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Actually picking a church and attending it would bring those issues to the forefront–not good for someone whose continued political success depends on every old-regular hard shell Baptist showing up to vote for him." > … > > And I should note that every now and then W drops by the Episcopal church near the White House. But wouldn’t a good Christian want to be part of a larger spiritual community? If you want to avoid political controversies caused by social issues, an Episcopal is _not_ the place to go. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/19 "2004-10-11T17:09:29Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Strictly speaking, he doesn’t say how often “This do in remembrance of me”. That is, where does it say that you have to do it every Sunday? Or that you have to do it in church? Strictly speaking, it doesn’t say. However, most Protestants I know (and Bush claims to be one of them, remember) take that passage together with [Acts 20:7](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ACTS+20:7&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) and [I Corinthians 16:1-3](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+16:1-3&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) to conclude that it is traditional and appropriate to meet on the first day of each week to partake in the Lord’s Supper and to make financial offerings to the church. Then they look at [Hebrews 10:25](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+10:25&language=english&version=KJV) and conclude that not only is it traditional and appropriate to assemble on the first day of the week, it might even be sinful not to do so. Not endorsing these views. Heck, I’m an atheist. Just reporting the typical Protestant mindset in re: church attendance. I still say if Bush claims to be a Methodist but never (or rarely) shows up for church, he is a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Israfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/87869e/32.png) [@Israfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Israfel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565/20 "2004-10-11T17:29:01Z")
That religion is primarily a private matter in which the role of the church is either diminished or completely eliminated is not a unique position. You can find the idea expressed by Kierkegaard and William James among others. Bush has likely not read any such philosophers, but that their ideas have filtered down into the public consciousness and thereby affected his own personal faith seems possible enough. From my own experience, Protestants are often sympathetic to this type of faith. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-is-so-religious-why-doesnt-he-join-a-congregation/268565.md?page=2)