# If Bush were on a "Mission from God", does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104 "2005-10-06T21:51:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/41 "2005-10-07T03:44:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, that sort of propaganda has worked pretty well so far as atheists have tried to find any way to explain why they should be the ones listened to and others should not. > > However, your quote is incorrect calling agnosticism a religion would be like calling blad a hair color. Atheism is a testimonial of a very specific belief that cannot be verified in any way shape or form, so it is in fact a doctrine of faith, despite what it’s adherents would like to believe. > > Erek Of course showing your ignorance is not a matter of faith but of fact: What you describe there is Hard Atheism, and I agree that it is not logical, that is why I remain an Agnostic (soft atheist). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/42 "2005-10-07T04:50:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What you describe there is Hard Atheism, and I agree that it is not logical, that is why I remain an Agnostic (soft atheist). Soft atheism isn’t agnosticism. Soft atheism is soft atheism. Agnosticism is the belief that the existence of god is fundimentally unknowable. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/43 "2005-10-07T05:10:35Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Now, cue the folks who are going to scream that Congress either didn’t authorize the invasion of Iraq, or that they vilolated US law in doing so. To that, I say, tell it to the court. Until and unless the SCOTUS rules on this issue, we assume the action to be constitutional. Telling it to the court is a useless endeavor. Ain’t no court going to rule in your favor while the US military is engaged in combat operations in a foreign country. I believe this to be true whether the military got there legally or in blatant violation of laws and constitutions. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/44 "2005-10-07T05:14:47Z")
Like the Latin saying: Inter arma silent leges ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/45 "2005-10-07T05:26:10Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Telling it to the court is a useless endeavor. > > Ain’t no court going to rule in your favor while the US military is engaged in combat operations in a foreign country. I believe this to be true whether the military got there legally or in blatant violation of laws and constitutions. That may indeed be true, but it doesn’t invalidate anything else I said in that post. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/46 "2005-10-07T06:20:54Z")
If Bush really were on a mission from God, that would be the best reason yet to take him down, and his little God, too! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/47 "2005-10-07T06:42:41Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Start a fucking thread detailing why you think atheists are some dogmatic group, each member of which agrees on a specific line of though, and stop hijacking threads, please. Just so you know, they make knee braces. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/48 "2005-10-07T06:50:39Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Soft atheism isn’t agnosticism. Soft atheism is soft atheism. Agnosticism is the belief that the existence of god is fundimentally unknowable. Can not find it now, but there was a very long discussion here about this before, and I arrived to the conclussion that Soft Atheism is just the same as Agnosticism. Her site is not there anymore, but Judith Hayes had this to say on Agnostisism-Atheism: > [@](#): > > “What is an agnostic?” > > "A nonexistent person. I should know. I used to be one. I don’t mean I was a nonexistent person, but I called myself an agnostic. Why? The same reason people do it today - to avoid using that awful “A” word. Atheist. What ought to be a fairly simple, straightforward task - defining the word “atheist” - has turned into a philosophical nightmare requiring postgraduate courses and a thesis advisor. And it isn’t just the religionists who have screwed things up so royally by heaping undeserved, malicious baggage onto that little word. (Atheist = immoral, communist scumbag.) No, we nonbelievers are wrangling over it ourselves, and the whole thing is just plain silly. > > The word “agnostic” means literally “without knowledge” or, more simply, “I don’t know.” But it is really just a cop-out word for atheist. It is a word that society has not yet blackened with foul adjectives. It is safer to utter in mixed company. However, it’s impossible not to “know” whether or not you acknowledge a deity. If you do, you know it. If you don’t, you know that too. And if you don’t, you are an atheist - a person without theistic beliefs. > > To say, “I am an agnostic” is to say, “I don’t know whether I believe in God or not.” Which is nonsense." > … > But the problem lies in the hairsplitting that goes on about whether or not someone simply does not acknowledge a god, or goes further and actually claims there is no god. Atheists do not make this claim. When we atheists emphatically state that we do not believe in a god we will sometime say, “Oh, Bbull! There is no god!” \*\*But what we’re talking about are the human creations \*\* such as Jupiter, Thor, Jehovah, Krishna, Jesus, Allah, and so on - the gods we’ve been spoon-fed since childhood but still find thoroughly unconvincing. So we lump them all together and pronounce them all nonexistent, and here is where the confusion comes in. **When we claim nonexistence for a god we mean of those so far offered as candidates.** > > No one can claim a god absolutely does not exist unless he can claim infinite knowledge of the universe. I have never heard any atheist make this claim either. In fact, if any atheist reading this can make the certain claim that no god does or could exist, and can back it up, I would like to hear about it. It would be fun to meet someone who possesses infinite knowledge of the universe. Well, on that thread I found people that indeed showed themselves to be hard Atheists, such infinite knowledge was interesting to behold, :dubious: But after that discussion, I do think Soft Atheism=Agnosticism. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/49 "2005-10-07T06:55:21Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > That may indeed be true, but it doesn’t invalidate anything else I said in that post. Oh, absolutely true. The Congress did indeed go whacky and rush into a resolution giving GW a free hand. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/50 "2005-10-07T07:39:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’d say it extends to atheists as well because their morality, whether they believe it or not is based upon ancient historical precedents derived from religion. Our modern morality is largely based upon the ten commandments like it or not. If you think it’s not ok to walk around naked, odds are your opinion was informed by “Thou shalt not covet they neighbor’s wife”. If you think murder is wrong, well that one should be obvious. If you think that stealing is wrong, again, obvious. Erek Yes, we know this is true because societies which do not have the 10 commandments as part of their history allow murder, robbery, nudity, and perjury. This was a real problem for me when I was in Japan and attacked by a naked man who stole my wallet, tried to kill me, and then lied about it. The police wouldn’t do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/51 "2005-10-07T07:43:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, on that thread I found people that indeed showed themselves to be hard Atheists, such infinite knowledge was interesting to behold, :dubious: > > But after that discussion, I do think Soft Atheism=Agnosticism. Yes, I feel the same way about people who just know there are no Leprechauns. As though all those ancient Irish people just made it up. Until someone can prove there are no Leprechauns we are all just agnostics (even though we won’t admit it). ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/52 "2005-10-07T08:41:53Z")
Re: the constitutionality issue. It seems to me that more than anything the constitution tends to protect Bush’s religious beliefs no matter how loony > [@](#): > > :[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. That’s the only reference to religion in the constitution itself (excluding the Bill of Rights which has the establishment clause). And it makes me think that the constitution would strongly protect Bush even if he believed he were Christ returned. As far as other viable legal action against Bush are concerned, fwiw (and completely offhand) the trees I’d be barking up would be: 1. Perjury. If the president’s actual motivation was primarily religious, I think it’s arguable that any statements to the contrary that he either made, or directed anyone to make under oath (to congress) constitute perjury. 2. Violations of International Law. Many people have made the case that the U.S. violated the U.N. charter by invading a member state without sufficient cause or a U.N. resolution (whether the U.N. ever enacted a resolution that allowed the U.S. to invade can be disputed by reasonable people). Of course nothing stops you from having a religious cause and a legally recognized justification, but statements like “god told me to” might tend to discredit the veracity of more secular justifications. Of course these arguments are feeble to begin with, and given the nature of the evidence I don’t think you’d have a shot in hell of any kind of successful prosecution in any venue. Moreover my personal opinion is that the president’s belief in divine mission is unfortunately not terribly divergent from the typical “shining city on a hill” rhetoric that’s always infested U.S. politics. Bush tends to crazy it up a bit when he gets in front of the religious right, so my cynical WAG is he figured Muslims would respond to that as well. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/53 "2005-10-07T08:44:18Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Only if the law fails Lemon or Agostini. If I vote for a law saying that everyone who makes X per month gets food stamps, and the reason I do is because Jesus wants me to feed the poor, the fact that that’s my motivation doesn’t make the law unconstitutional. The law has a secular purpose, doesn’t restrict the food stamps to a specific religion, etc. OK, I read up on the Lemon test, so can we take a hypothetical as it applies to the actions of the President? Let’s say a president decides God has told him it’s the manifest destiny of the United States to start building a worldwide empire, and he should start with Muslim countries which he believes to be a bunch of heretics anyway. Would this fail the lemon test? Assuming he argued there was a secular purpose (empire - or establishing bases or whatever) and the primary effect was not advancing religion (but was building empire). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/54 "2005-10-07T10:11:42Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I dunno does Bush have the right to follow the dictates of the supreme authority of the universe? No. People who hears imaginary voices and act upon them should be given help, not the means to attack other countries. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/55 "2005-10-07T10:28:53Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, that sort of propaganda has worked pretty well so far as atheists have tried to find any way to explain why they should be the ones listened to and others should not. > > However, your quote is incorrect calling agnosticism a religion would be like calling bald a hair color. Atheism is a testimonial of a very specific belief that cannot be verified in any way shape or form, so it is in fact a doctrine of faith, despite what it’s adherents would like to believe. > > Erek So about this Santa Claus guy, is it, If I say he doesn’t exist,I must prove he doesn’t exist, or You believe in him, and you got to prove he’s real? I have a magic Easter egg (Jesus touched it, REALLY, I saw him) if it gets broken, the universe AWKI will be destroyed, and be replaced with something far worse! Prove my Jesus egg aint real! Can I stop taking these pills, And listen to the voices in MY head like he does? > [@](#): > > And if my thought-dreams could be seen > They’d probably put my head in a guillotine… > It’s alright ma (I’m only bleeding) Bob Dylan liberté, fraternité, égalité ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/56 "2005-10-07T10:43:55Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Yes, we know this is true because societies which do not have the 10 commandments as part of their history allow murder, robbery, nudity, and perjury. This was a real problem for me when I was in Japan and attacked by a naked man who stole my wallet, tried to kill me, and then lied about it. The police wouldn’t do anything about it. You are basing a whole society on one crime? There is more crime for person in the US than Japan, Japan has less crime then any other country according to the last poll I read. In tribal places where there is nudity,as a matter of dress,and never heard of the 10 commandments there is little crime. The 10 commandments have done little if anything, to curb crime in this country,and if you go back to the 5,000 or so years, the Commandments did little to curb crime any where. a lot of people who were taught the 10 commandments still break them, look at the clergy,sunday school teachers etc, who are now in prison for their crimes. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/57 "2005-10-07T10:52:56Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You are basing a whole society on one crime? There is more crime for person in the US than Japan, Japan has less crime then any other country according to the last poll I read. > > In tribal places where there is nudity,as a matter of dress,and never heard of the 10 commandments there is little crime. > > The 10 commandments have done little if anything, to curb crime in this country,and if you go back to the 5,000 or so years, the Commandments did little to curb crime any where. a lot of people who were taught the 10 commandments still break them, look at the clergy,sunday school teachers etc, who are now in prison for their crimes. > > Monavis Er - whoosh? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/58 "2005-10-07T11:28:03Z")
"[President Bush said to all of us](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4317498.stm) : 'I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq… And I did. “‘And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I’m gonna do it.’” "Ohhh incoming from God, I can, feel, words, "George tell the I want you to melt the North Pole, so (God trying not to laugh) the penguins have more room to swim (God hangs up, and is ROTFLHFAO) George, George, George, ask em if they’ve got Prince Albert in a can (God ROTFLHFAO, God "Me damn me for making him that dumb) Next on God’s funniest phoney fone calls; God "here’s the setup, bird flu, Vietnam, and poultry terrorists, Ya think I can get him to invade? POULTRY TERRORISTS, Duck Foo, and Swine Foo, hey Jesus, you remember when I got Ford with the Swine Foo? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/59 "2005-10-07T12:21:59Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > "[President Bush said to all of us](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4317498.stm) : 'I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq… And I did. > > “‘And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I’m gonna do it.’” > > "Ohhh incoming from God, I can, feel, words, "George tell the I want you to melt the North Pole, so (God trying not to laugh) the penguins have more room to swim (God hangs up, and is ROTFLHFAO) George, George, George, ask em if they’ve got Prince Albert in a can (God ROTFLHFAO, God "Me damn me for making him that dumb) > Next on God’s funniest phoney fone calls; > God "here’s the setup, bird flu, Vietnam, and poultry terrorists, Ya think I can get him to invade? POULTRY TERRORISTS, Duck Foo, and Swine Foo, hey Jesus, you remember when I got Ford with the Swine Foo? 🙂 Except it’s probably true. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104/60 "2005-10-07T14:27:28Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > "[President Bush said to all of us](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4317498.stm) : 'I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq… And I did. > > “‘And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I’m gonna do it.’” Interesting that Bush only said this to Nabil Shaath, and no one else. Perhaps it’s Mr. Shaath who hears voices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-bush-were-on-a-mission-from-god-does-it-matter/325104.md?page=4)