# If Clinton stays out, who is likely to be the nominee? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 13, 2014, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100 "2014-12-13T08:33:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/101 "2014-12-23T20:18:09Z")
Voluntary association, as guaranteed by the 1st amendment? Government exists to do SOME things together that we can’t do for ourselves or which we don’t want done by voluntary associations, like defending the country from foreign threats or policing. Government was never intended to build houses or finance solar powered cars. Those are the kinds of things that voluntary associations of people already do together. The main problem I have with that characterization of government though is that in the real world government tends to have its own agenda, and most modern governments have professional bureaucrats who are neither accountable to voters nor accountable to elected officials. In theory they are supposed to serve the public, but in reality they are people, and very few people get jobs where they aren’t also looking out for their own interests. And as we’ve seen, there are more than a few bad apples who think the people are their subjects, not their employers. Liberals are often fond of saying, “Self-regulation doesn’t work”. They are right. But it applies to the government as well as to corporations. A bureaucracy that is not tightly regulated and overseen by elected officials will go rogue, as has happened several times during this administration. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/102 "2014-12-23T21:09:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Government exists to do SOME things together Poppycock. 😉 Your word. > [@](#): > > Government was never intended to build houses or finance solar powered cars. As in “promote the general welfare”? Sure it was, you can find it right at the top of your pocket copy. 😉 If you don’t have one, I’m sure Hannity would be happy to send you one. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/103 "2014-12-23T21:18:02Z")
So the purpose of government isn’t to do things we can’t do for ourselves, it’s to do basically anything it puts its collective mind to? Interesting. It would be more believable if it did its core job better. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/104 "2014-12-23T21:19:36Z")
We’re exploring _your_ concepts here. If they’re that confusing to _you_, maybe a little less posting and a little more thinking might be in order. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/105 "2014-12-23T23:29:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > As in “promote the general welfare”? Perhaps you could point to some case law where that part of the constitution was use in a determinative fashion? Or, you might refer to [Jacobson v. Massachusetts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) > [@](#): > > “Although th[e] preamble indicates the general purposes for which the people ordained and established the Constitution, it has never been regarded as the source of any substantive power conferred on the government of the United States, or on any of its departments.” ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/106 "2014-12-23T23:46:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps you could point to some case law where that part of the constitution was use in a determinative fashion? Or, you might refer to [Jacobson v. Massachusetts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts) From \*\*your \*\*link: > [@](#): > > [Associate Justice John] Harlan ruled that personal liberties could be suspended given external circumstances. During an outbreak, for example, the state can encroach on those liberties when “the safety of the general public may demand.”[1] He compared the smallpox outbreak to the Civil War (in which three out of nine Justices at the term served) by saying that a community has the right to protect itself both from disease and from military invasion. [3] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/107 "2014-12-24T01:30:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps you could point to some case law where that part of the constitution was use in a determinative fashion? [QUOTE=Article I§8.1] The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; [/QUOTE] That is the preamble? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/108 "2014-12-24T01:32:46Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > From \*\*your \*\*link: > > 😃 Was that point based on the “general welfare” statement in the preamble? If not, then it’s not pertinent to the point be addressed. Hint: It’s not. From the link: > [@](#): > > Harlan’s decision both supported both police power and limits on said power… Emphasis added. If the Feds were empowered to do anything that could be said to “promote the general welfare”, then there would be no need to enumerate the powers granted to them. Now, if Elvis would like to actually argue that that phrase empowers the feds to “build houses or finance solar powered cars”, I’d be interested in hearing his case, backed up by legal precedent and not just personal opinion. The blank check\* the feds have comes for the commerce clause (as interpreted in modern times) and the power to tax, not the preamble. \*loosely speaking. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100/109 "2014-12-24T02:10:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps you could point to some case law where that part of the constitution was use in a determinative fashion? Perhaps you could address the point under discussion instead of silly, irrelevant nitpicking? For once, at least? And do please educate yourself about excluded middles. It would help you greatly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-clinton-stays-out-who-is-likely-to-be-the-nominee/707100.md?page=5)