# If Democrats decide to pivot from Trump and run on an economic message, they’re doomed **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 28, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992 "2018-05-28T19:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/21 "2018-05-28T23:04:22Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Obama borrowed billions and had the weakest recovery since the great depression. You can look it up. He left with a decline in the labor rate ( which Trump has since reversed ) and a record amount of people on food stamps. If that is not enough, he accumulated more debt than ALL other Presidents combined. > > Obama’s part of the top 1% now, taking big money and making speeches from the wall street firms he scolded. Of course not one of the wall street crooks were prosecuted under Obama. Face it, he’s a sell out these days So you don’t approve of Trump borrowing anywhere from 1 to 5 trillion to pay for his tax cut then I assume? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/22 "2018-05-28T23:12:47Z")
Trump says the economy is doing better. Fox News reports that Trump says the economy is doing better. Silver Lining posts that Fox News reports that Trump says the economy is doing better. Big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/23 "2018-05-28T23:18:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > More cite-free, baseless, and/or misleading claims. Trump and the GOP thank you for your efforts in supporting their propaganda. > [@Chronos](#): > > What the heck does it even mean, to say “the weakest recovery since the Great Depression”? Obama’s was the _only_ recovery of that magnitude since the Great Depression. Trump doesn’t even have a recovery. It is a matter of record – and all mainstream economists agree – that the recovery from the Great Recession was in fact the weakest, slowest of all recoveries from recessions in the last 70 years. I have posted charts showing this, on this board. I will NOT repeat my efforts. It is not our fault that you are too stupid and too ignorant to pay attention to what’s going on around you. If you are in any way interested in actually learning something, you can do a little basic research yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/24 "2018-05-28T23:24:44Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Obama borrowed billions and had the weakest recovery since the great depression. You can look it up. He left with a decline in the labor rate ( which Trump has since reversed ) and a record amount of people on food stamps. If that is not enough, he accumulated more debt than ALL other Presidents combined. Oh, [FFS](https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296). > [@](#): > > Donald Trump (as projected in FY 2019 budget): Plans to add $8.282 trillion, a 41 percent increase from the $20.245 trillion debt at the end of Obama’s last budget, FY 2017. If he spends as he hopes, Trump will add the second-highest dollar amount in history. More important, he will add almost as much in his first term as Obama did in two terms. > > ``` > FY 2021 - $1.119 trillion. > FY 2020 - $1,198 trillion. > FY 2019 - $1.225 trillion. > FY 2018 - $1.233 trillion. > > ``` > > Barack Obama: Added $8.588 trillion, a 74 percent increase from the $11.657 trillion debt at the end of Bush’s last budget, FY 2009. > > ``` > FY 2017 - $672 billion. > FY 2016 - $1.423 trillion. > FY 2015 - $327 billion. > FY 2014 - $1.086 trillion. > FY 2013 - $672 billion. > FY 2012 - $1.276 trillion. > FY 2011 - $1.229 trillion. > FY 2010 - $1.652 trillion. > > ``` And, assuming that by the meaningless term “labor rate” you mean unemployment rate, here’s what the [Bureau of Labor Statistics](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000) says. Straight down since 2011 until it stops declining in … 2018. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/25 "2018-05-28T23:28:49Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > It is a matter of record – and all mainstream economists agree – that the recovery from the Great Recession was in fact the weakest, slowest of all recoveries from recessions in the last 70 years. > > I have posted charts showing this, on this board. I will NOT repeat my efforts. It is not our fault that you are too stupid and too ignorant to pay attention to what’s going on around you. If you are in any way interested in actually learning something, you can do a little basic research yourselves. Life is almost never this simple. Economics certainly isn’t. In terms of jobs, certainly an important indicator, the Obama recovery measures quite well against the others of the last century or so. In terms of GDP, it is indeed the slowest, but also the longest (in fact, it’s still going). The Obama recovery was/is the longest since WWII. He turned around the economy and kept it growing through the remainder of his presidency. This is a fact, and many Presidents can’t claim to have an economy that grew throughout their tenure after the first year. > **[Christie: The U.S. is in the worst recovery since WWII](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/nov/10/chris-christie/christie-us-worst-recovery-wwii/)** > > The central theme of the Republican presidential debate in Milwaukee, Wis., was business and economics. Fox Business mod Of course, if you’re only interested in personal insults, then you can carry on without me. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/26 "2018-05-28T23:30:13Z")
I’m not even asking you for a cite-- I’m just asking you what you mean. I can’t find a cite myself for what you’re saying if I don’t even know what you’re saying. By comparison, suppose I had said that Obama’s recovery was the purplest recovery ever. You can’t find cites either for or against that, because it makes no sense: What does it mean for a recovery to be purple, and how do you measure purpleness? “Slowest” at least has some meaning, but even that, I can interpret in two different ways: Does it refer to the time required to complete the recovery, or does it refer to the rate? If the former, then that just means that Bush’s recession was a very deep one, and so it would be inevitable that it would take a long time to recover from. If the rate, then what numbers are you using as your economic indicators? The unemployment rate, the GDP the DJIA, the value of the dollar against other currencies, the price of gas? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/27 "2018-05-28T23:55:18Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The issue is whether or not they actually do do so. Best typo of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/28 "2018-05-28T23:57:04Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I have posted charts showing this, on this board. I will NOT repeat my efforts. It is not our fault that you are too stupid and too ignorant to pay attention to what’s going on around you. If you are in any way interested in actually learning something, you can do a little basic research yourselves. This is a warning for personal insults. You are welcome to argue your position forcefully, but you are not permitted to insult other posters in this forum. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/29 "2018-05-29T00:35:24Z")
**Oh look, another thread with Republicans telling Democrats how they should think and act in the next election!** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/30 "2018-05-29T00:39:29Z")
We should be nicer. Get more flies with honey than vinegar. 'Course, shit works best… ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/31 "2018-05-29T01:24:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Here are some specific claims he makes: > > > [@](#): > > > > Sixteen months into the Trump presidency, the unemployment rate is at its lowest level in 18 years. Despite a record 155 million people being employed, job openings in March were also at a record high of 6.6 million. There are more good-paying working-class jobs and more openings for good-paying jobs. > > I wouldn’t mind seeing Dopers address some of these claims. Clicking one of the articles’ links, I find that In other words, that’s what they _say_ they _plan_ to do, not what they actually are doing. The unemployment rate has been on a[consistently downward trend since 2010](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000). What’s Trump got to do with that? Also, there was a time not long ago during the Obama administration that Trump insisted that the unemployment statistics were inaccurate; “phony” to be specific. > [@Donald Trump in 2015](#): > > The number isn’t reflective. I’ve seen numbers of 24 percent – I actually saw a number of 42 percent unemployment. Forty-two percent. 5.3 percent unemployment – that is the biggest joke there is in this country. … The unemployment rate is probably 20 percent, but I will tell you, you have some great economists that will tell you it’s a 30, 32. And the highest I’ve heard so far is 42 percent." So, if the number was phony then, it’s phony now unless there’s been some drastic correction that Trump implemented in method of discerning the accurate rate of unemployment. Unsurprisingly, we haven’t heard about any executive order that fixed that. Any change in methodology would surely also be reflected in an interruption of some sort to the general downward trend, but again unsurprisingly, we haven’t seen that either. Does Trump still believe the number is phony and he wants us to forget about his previous claims? Or did Trump never believe the number is phony and now wants to take credit for outcome of the previous administrations policies. I’ll give him this. In his incompetency, his policies have not reversed the gains of the previous administration. Yet. Give it time. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/32 "2018-05-29T01:51:20Z")
[Oh, joy, for joy! American jobs saved after the company benefits from Trump’s tax cut!](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-now/2018/05/27/harley-davidson-layoffs/647199002/) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/33 "2018-05-29T03:26:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Trump says the economy is doing better. > Fox News reports that Trump says the economy is doing better. > Silver Lining posts that Fox News reports that Trump says the economy is doing better. > > Big deal. It’s not even really Fox News. It’s an opinion piece on the Fox News website. An opinion piece written by Andy Puzder. Andy Puzder, as you may recall, withdrew his nomination for Secretary of Labor over ethical concerns. Not ethical enough for the Trump administration. Wow! But the OP asked, “What did Andy Puzder say that was wrong?” > [@](#): > > What passes for progressive economic policy boils down to: increasing taxes on those who create wealth; creating government programs through which Democrats can redistribute that wealth to potential voters; and repeating disingenuous sound bites about fairness and decency. This class warfare narrative leaves little room for policies that might actually encourage economic growth. This is not remotely accurate. It barely qualifies as a straw man. It’s like a three-year-old’s drawing of a blurry photo of a poorly assembled straw man. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/34 "2018-05-29T03:54:14Z")
Wait. The recovery from _the worst recession in 70 years_…was the slowest in 70 years? And they’re blaming _Obama_?? This is a strange world we live in. . ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/35 "2018-05-29T04:22:25Z")
The Democrats are just doomed, full stop. They could pivot from Trump, they could pivot away from Trump, they could pivot on a divot on a rivet, it won’t make a difference, they are doomed. As far as I can tell the party is currently death-rattle-‘n’-rollin’ off the mortal coil. The upside is, I believe Trump’s upset victory and throwing out the old books, has paved the way for an Independent president. I think it probably won’t be in the next election (I expect Trump to be re-elected) but possibly after that. They say “adapt or die.” The Republican party’s embracing of Trump, no matter _how much_ it pisses everyone off (including me), is a form of adapting to a changing culture. The Democrats failed to do it. Trump broke the mold of traditional politicians. This has both pros and cons. The con is that Trump is now President. The pro is that he opened the door for someone who’s not a professional politician to win an election. This is something that’s very significant. And I believe that we will see an Independent president in my lifetime. (I’m 31.) ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/36 "2018-05-29T04:36:28Z")
Parties do adapt. The biggest losses seen in modern times were 1964 and 1972. In both cases the losing party won the very next presidential election. Just pray to whatever god (or gods) you believe in that the Dems don’t adapt by coming up with a trump of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/37 "2018-05-29T04:52:03Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Wait. > > The recovery from _the worst recession in 70 years_…was the slowest in 70 years? > > And they’re blaming _Obama_?? > > This is a strange world we live in. > . Part of the problem with economics is that economics is _hard_. “Obama had the slowest recovery since the great depression” works as a pithy statement because it’s technically _true_, and delving into all the reasons why it’s still a remarkably unfair statement takes time and energy the average voter just isn’t going to spend discussing economics. Similarly, the economy is actually pretty decent right now. Why? It has approximately fuck-all to do with Trump’s policies; the trend lines from the Obama administration continue almost entirely unabated. The Trump tax cut is popular. Why? People are seeing their tax returns, and aren’t thinking about how _obscenely expensive_ it is to give the rich such a gigantic tax cut, they’re thinking about their own paltry sum. And so on, and so forth. That said, there’s still plenty of room to run on economic populism, and if the entirety of your argument can be summed up as “stupid motherfucker on Fox News’s opinions website says”, then I’m not even going to bother to read the article, because I have better things to do than waste my time reading propaganda from the [most dishonest mainstream western news outlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=667548). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/38 "2018-05-29T12:24:27Z")
It’s amazing how the partisans can slam a Democratic administration for a slow recovery from a near-Depression without exploring whose fault it was that there \*was \*a near-Depression, or the obstacles Obama faced in recovering from it. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/39 "2018-05-29T12:48:55Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Obama borrowed billions and had the weakest recovery since the great depression. You can look it up. He left with a decline in the labor rate ( which Trump has since reversed ) and a record amount of people on food stamps. If that is not enough, he accumulated more debt than ALL other Presidents combined. > > Obama’s part of the top 1% now, taking big money and making speeches from the wall street firms he scolded. Of course not one of the wall street crooks were prosecuted under Obama. Face it, he’s a sell out these days More like Obummer, amiright!? LOCK HIM UP! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/40 "2018-05-29T13:09:12Z")
It’s hard to run against the economy right now, but it’s not hard to run on specific economic issues like health insurance coverage. Like a majority of SDMB pundits, I fully expect Trump’s term to be an economic disaster, but that’s a hard sell right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992.md?page=3)