# If Democrats decide to pivot from Trump and run on an economic message, they’re doomed **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 28, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992 "2018-05-28T19:50:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/61 "2018-05-29T20:46:21Z")
“The Democrats didn’t fix the problem we caused fast enough or fully enough!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/62 "2018-05-29T21:01:45Z")
The claim wasn’t that Obama increased the debt more than “all previous” presidents, but “all other”. You guys might have noticed that we’ve had another president since Obama. Who is already single-handedly rivaling Obama’s numbers, even in a single term, and even in a strong economy. And when comparing Obama’s deficits to “all previous” as opposed to “through GHW Bush”, remember that the guy who came after Bush actually managed to get a surplus, for the first time in generations. Hey, maybe we should elect more presidents from that party! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/63 "2018-05-30T08:47:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, how much did Obama increase the national debt compared to \*\*all \*\*previous Presidents put together, including H.W. Bush and Clinton? A hint: more. But you have to remember that Obama also increased the US population by more than any previous President! Naturally that’s going to be more expensive! :rolleyes: Both these claims are examples of the absurdities that result when people try to make arguments based on absolute numbers about quantities with positive natural growth rates. All other things being equal, a bigger debt will **automatically** produce a larger amount of additional debt in a given time interval than a smaller debt will, just as a bigger population will add a larger absolute number of people over a given time interval than a smaller population will, even if their growth rates are the same. Somewhat more meaningfully, we can [look at the debt increases under various Presidents as **percentages**](https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296). In which case FDR tops the list with a 1048% debt increase, followed by Wilson with 727%, Reagan with 186%, GW Bush with 101%, Obama with 74%, GHW Bush with 54%, and Ford with 47%. In any case, as previous posters have pointed out, Trump will soon have added almost as much in absolute numbers to the national debt in one term as Obama did in his two terms, and without the excuse of a historically massive recession to cope with. At which point the Trump supporters will go quiet about Obama’s alleged spendiness. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/64 "2018-05-30T12:37:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But you have to remember that Obama also increased the US population by more than any previous President! Naturally that’s going to be more expensive! :rolleyes: So you believe a President has the same level of influence over the size of the population as he does over the size of the deficit. Hmmm. When people say Obama fucked the country good, I don’t think that is exactly what they meant. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Monocracy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monocracy/32/4493_2.png) [@Monocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monocracy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/65 "2018-05-30T14:13:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, how much did Obama increase the national debt compared to \*\*all \*\*previous Presidents put together, including H.W. Bush and Clinton? A hint: more. This is not true. It was not true when **Silver Lining** said it, and it’s still not true. Conservatives have a nasty habit of spreading false information over and over again until all their little lemmings believe it and start spreading the lies themselves. There are actual fucking numbers that you look up to see the facts. I suggest you do that instead of believing what you’ve been fed. Here, i will give you a head start: [https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current](https://treasurydirect.gov/NP/debt/current) Plug in some dates and get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/66 "2018-05-30T14:26:13Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > You also said things that are misleading: yes, labor force participation was as low as 62.7 when Obama’s left office. As of last month it was… 62.8 and trending back downward. Any chance the OP can respond this this? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/67 "2018-05-30T15:28:41Z")
Personally I blame William Henry Harrison for all of it! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/68 "2018-05-30T15:54:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In any case, as previous posters have pointed out, Trump will soon have added almost as much in absolute numbers to the national debt in one term as Obama did in his two terms, and without the excuse of a historically massive recession to cope with. At which point the Trump supporters will go quiet about Obama’s alleged spendiness. Unfortunately, they won’t. When have facts or reality ever mattered to them? They’ll just keep on spreading the same old party line. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/69 "2018-05-30T20:10:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you believe a President has the same level of influence over the size of the population as he does over the size of the deficit. Uh, no; the rolleyes smiley was supposed to make it clear that the claim was not intended seriously, but I guess it might have been too subtle for you. I’ll spell it out more simply. The point is that comparing earlier and later increases of an exponentially increasing quantity in terms of **absolute numbers** can be very misleading. That’s because given a particular growth rate, the larger “principal” at the later date is **always** going to produce a larger increase in absolute numbers than the smaller “principal” at the earlier date. That’s why comparing relative measures like the abovementioned **percentage** increase in the debt gives a more accurate picture of which President is really boosting indebtedness the most, as opposed to which President has merely inherited the largest previously accumulated debt. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/70 "2018-05-31T01:13:34Z")
Of course, the OP is mistaken in presenting this as a binary choice. I expect a modern party to be able to walk _and_ chew gum. Dems should stick with the attacks on trump to gin up the base, (notably those segments of it that didn’t vote in 2016) _and_ have an economic message. The two could even be complimentary. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/71 "2018-05-31T07:22:49Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Flyer, > > Agreed. Fact are facts. The recovery was weak. if you want to see a good recovery that did not put the USA in terrible debt, see Reagan who took over Carter’s mess. Oh, I’ve been waiting to dust this one off! During the elder Bush years, a friend of mine was parroting Rush$ Limbaugh’s talk-show claim that “Reagan was a great President who turned around Carter’s mess” and, as proof, there was a recent (at that time) analysis that said the GDP had risen 12% during Reagan’s two terms in office. I thought, _Twelve per-cent GDP growth is pretty good!_ Later that year, my Modern US History professor referred to that same talk-show episode. He repeated Limbaugh’s claim that the Gipper had presided over a 12% increase in the nation’s Gross Domestic Product and he confirmed it. Then he wrote the simple math on the whiteboard: a 12% improvement over 8 years works out to an average 1.5% per year. Not bad. On the other hand, even through the worst of the Gas Crisis and the Hostage Crisis the nation’s GDP growth never slowed below 2% – half a percentage point better than the celebrity-turned-politician ever managed in the best of his years. So, yeah, the Great Communicator turned around Carter’s 2+% GDP growth mess and turned it into an average 1.5% GDP growth victory. Furthermore, President Raygun accomplished his 1.5% average growth by stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. But perhaps that’s why Republicans have practically reified him. —G! $I don’t know if he originated the strategy, but he certainly perpetuated the habit of making claims and, rather than provide cites or even suggest sources, simply drop “it’s true; you can look it up” into the middle of his monologue. It has always struck me as a rather sleazy approach to presenting an argument, particularly because it seemed (to me) like he knew damn-well his audience wouldn’t bother to really look anything up; they weren’t inclined to challenge any of his claims because those claims confirmed their pre-existing biases. \*As if that affected the economy somehow; I could never understand why the professor mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/72 "2018-05-31T11:00:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But you have to remember that Obama also increased the US population by more than any previous President! Naturally that’s going to be more expensive! :rolleyes: > > Both these claims are examples of the absurdities that result when people try to make arguments based on absolute numbers about quantities with positive natural growth rates. All other things being equal, a bigger debt will **automatically** produce a larger amount of additional debt in a given time interval than a smaller debt will, just as a bigger population will add a larger absolute number of people over a given time interval than a smaller population will, even if their growth rates are the same. > > Somewhat more meaningfully, we can [look at the debt increases under various Presidents as **percentages**](https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296). In which case FDR tops the list with a 1048% debt increase, followed by Wilson with 727%, Reagan with 186%, GW Bush with 101%, Obama with 74%, GHW Bush with 54%, and Ford with 47%. > > In any case, as previous posters have pointed out, Trump will soon have added almost as much in absolute numbers to the national debt in one term as Obama did in his two terms, and without the excuse of a historically massive recession to cope with. **At which point the Trump supporters will go quiet about Obama’s alleged speediness.** You really think that? Heh heh heh. Poor country mouse… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/73 "2018-05-31T14:44:21Z")
> [@Monocracy](#): > > This is not true. It was not true when **Silver Lining** said it, and it’s still not true. No, it’s actually true. There are some factors that you may not have considered. The first, of course, is to include the $800\* billion in additional spending from Obama’s stimulus package (the one he said would keep the unemployment rate under 8% - another hint, 9.5% is higher than 8%). The other is TARP, which was a series of loans. Those loans were almost entirely repaid, so they should not have added to the national debt, unless the repayments were simply spent, as Obama did. So those amounts should be counted against Obama, not Bush. “True” is different from “not true”. You could look it up! Regards, Shodan \*Actually it turned out to be about $840 billion, but let’s not quibble. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/74 "2018-05-31T15:04:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it’s actually true. There are some factors that you may not have considered. Nope. The factors are all included in the stats at the linked site. They prove you wrong. QED. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/75 "2018-05-31T15:29:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > the one he said would keep the unemployment rate under 8% - another hint, 9.5% is higher than 8% At the risk of engaging in whataboutism, I’m sure when given the opportunity to vote between the guy who [promised 6%](http://fortune.com/2015/12/04/romney-campaign-promise-unemployment/) vs. the guy that actually delivered 5%, you made the correct choice, right? After all, 6% is higher than 5%. Or can we at least agree to take presidential claims about future unemployment with a grain of salt? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/76 "2018-05-31T15:36:26Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Nope. The factors are all included in the stats at the linked site. They prove you wrong. QED. Now, now, you must remember that the Republican approach to economics is inherently correct. It’s simply impossible for **Shodan** to be wrong on this point, no matter what the facts may say. That, by the way, is why Trump’s deficit increase is so much better than Obama’s deficit increase. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/77 "2018-05-31T16:18:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The first, of course, is to include the $800\* billion in additional spending from Obama’s stimulus package (the one he said would keep the unemployment rate under 8% - another hint, 9.5% is higher than 8%). The other is TARP, which was a series of loans. Those loans were almost entirely repaid, so they should not have added to the national debt, unless the repayments were simply spent, as Obama did. So those amounts should be counted against Obama, not Bush. > > “True” is different from “not true”. You could look it up! Or you could actually offer some evidence for either of these assertions (that Obama’s stimulus spending is not included in the “Obama deficit,” or that TARP loans were included in the deficit when the borrowers had not defaulted). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/78 "2018-05-31T16:41:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Those loans were almost entirely repaid, so they should not have added to the national debt, unless the repayments were simply spent, as Obama did. Actually the government made a $15 billion dollar profit on the repayments. I’m curious about the rest of the claim. What could you mean by Obama spending the repayments? How did this work fiscally? How could he spend money not officially allocated by the budget? What did he spend it on? Even if he did, how could spending money he already had and therefore didn’t need to be borrowed increase the debt? And how in the world did he do this while cutting the annual deficit by a trillion dollars? Ninjaed while I was away from the computer. But this simply strengthens the bafflement these statements present. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/79 "2018-05-31T16:41:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Or you could actually offer some evidence for either of these assertions (that Obama’s stimulus spending is not included in the “Obama deficit,” or that TARP loans were included in the deficit when the borrowers had not defaulted). Why? Why would he “offer some evidence for either of these assertions”? It won’t change either of your minds, would it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992/80 "2018-05-31T17:37:32Z")
It could certainly change my mind about whether Obama contributed more to the deficit than other presidents (taking inflation and non-discretionary spending into account, of course). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-democrats-decide-to-pivot-from-trump-and-run-on-an-economic-message-they-re-doomed/814992.md?page=5)