# If Donald Trump is so awful, then... **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 27, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966 "2017-02-27T19:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/21 "2017-02-27T20:19:51Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The horse is dead. dav345 - join date February 2017 Equine cadaver percussionist. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/22 "2017-02-27T20:23:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Another big factor is also the “Fatigue of one party in the White House.” It’s very difficult for a political party to win three presidential elections in a row; I think it’s only happened once since World War II, when Bush Sr. defeated Dukakis in 1988, and even then there was a point in that election year when Dukakis led Bush by a whopping 17 percentage points. And four years later, even with the breakup of the Soviet Union, and a 92% approval rating immediately after the Gulf War, Bush eventually lost to Bill Clinton. > > After 8 years of Clinton, we got GWB, after 8 years of GWB, we got Obama, and after 8 years of Obama… > > So entering 2016, there was already a slight advantage for the Republican candidate, whoever he or she was, against the Democratic nominee. Had Hillary won in 2016, then this would only have kicked the can further down the road. The 2020 election would have probably gone to the Republican challenger and Hillary would have lost as an incumbent. I don’t know if individual voters vote this way, but collectively it makes little sense to do so. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/23 "2017-02-27T20:27:37Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > There were three groups voting. > The “Yea Democrats! Boo Republicans!” group. > The “Yea Republicans! Boo Democrats!” group. > And the “F the whole lot of them, what we need is someone in there to shake up the whole system!” > > Trump took the last two groups. > > If Bernie ran up against Rubio, Bush, or Cruz he would have got the pro-Dem and F-em groups and won. If this is what really happened, the last group of voters must not be thinking about things clearly. It would be the equivalent of chopping down a fruit tree that is just short of maturity that hasn’t yielded any fruit on the theory that “this tree must be no good, let’s chop it down and plant a different one.” It makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/24 "2017-02-27T20:36:10Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I don’t know if individual voters vote this way, but collectively it makes little sense to do so. Add up enough individual voters for something, and it becomes “collective.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/25 "2017-02-27T20:55:48Z")
> [@dav345](#): > > A tiredness with the liberal party worrying about where to pee instead of creating jobs? I live in North Carolina, where the Republican party passed the signature Where To Pee law, and refuses to rescind it despite the widespread boycotts of our state that followed. Tell me again which party is worrying about where to pee instead of creating jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/26 "2017-02-27T21:17:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Velocity** : > > But Fox News is a deep-red island in a sea of light-blue networks. So the overall tallied cumulative effect is still a liberal media, all factors considered. CNN and MSNBC constitute a “sea”? There are three national news networks in this country, and of those three, the largest and most biased supports the Republicans. This does not constitute an overall liberal bias. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/27 "2017-02-27T21:22:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Democratic voters have to like someone to vote for them, Republican voters would vote for a wet dog turd if it was red and shaped like an R. > > Seven years of lying about Obamacare have galvanized many into being anti-Democratic whereas the ACA supporters are only just now making their presence felt. > > Comey’s unprofessional insertion of himself into the race played a role. > > Fake news such as Facebook memes have a certain subset of the electorate incapable of differentiating between their ass and a hole in the ground. > > It seems like those most worried about where people pee are Republicans. > > Only the most selfish and/or stupid among us votes because he thinks his taxes are too high, and if they did why would they vote for a guy who is the poster boy for wealthy tax avoidance? > > You can’t seriously talk about liberal news bias when there is an entire network (two if you count One America News) devoted to being to the Republicans what Pravda was to Communists. > > You may not want to hear about racism and xenophobia, but that is a HUGE part of the equation that cannot be ignored. This. I’ll add also that the presidency and Congress were due to flip anyway, that Clinton didn’t campaign in the right places and that although Trump won, he still had 3 million fewer votes which he got the easy way, through nationalism, racism and demagoguery instead of beating Clinton on the issues. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/28 "2017-02-27T21:28:25Z")
> [@dav345](#): > > …how did he get elected over a seasoned politico who would bring with her a former President as her first hubs? I am not trying to be antagonistic here - I think it’s a valid question. Please don’t waste time with “half the country is racist and/or sexist” arguments - not buying it. … As well you shouldn’t. It was less than half of the country. Less than half of the people who voted, even. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/29 "2017-02-27T21:46:54Z")
Multiple reasons: 1. We had a democrat in office for 2 terms, people rarely pick the same party to rule the white house for 3+ terms in a row. Reagan/Bush, FDR and Truman, but other than that it seems to be 8 years max for the last 100 years or so. 2. Clinton was a known, she would be Obama’s third term. Trump was an unknown. Trump was like a long shot gambling option, it could be great or terrible. For a lot of people that was preferable to a candidate like Clinton who they felt was known. 3. Trump talked about corruption and the decimation of the working class in ways that resonated with a lot of voters. He may not actually do much about these things but he connected on an emotional level with a lot of people about these issues. 4. There is a pushback against multiculturalism due to all the rapid progress on gay rights, having a black president, a female president, the tensions between the west and the Islamic world, the rise of China as a global superpower, etc. I know OP said ‘no comments about racism or sexism’, but it did play a role. Maybe not the only role but it was there. 5. Hillary Clinton has a lot of negatives, a lot of people who voted for Trump did so because they felt he was less bad than Clinton. 6. Lots of people knew Trump had problems, but issues like the supreme court, tax cuts, repealing the ACA, etc. was more important. 7. People mad at the system felt Trump was their opportunity to get revenge. I remember looking at voting patterns and how they differed between 2012 and 2016. The main takeaway is that Trump did far better in the midwest and northeast than Romney did in 2012, but he did worse or the same everywhere else. He did worse in the sunbelt states, worse in texas, etc. But he did much better all through the midwest and northeast. Several blue states moved 5-10 points to the right from 2012 to 2016, but becasue they were so deeply blue nobody noticed. Obama won Vermont by 35 points in 2012, Hillary won it by 27 points, an 8 point shift to the right. But since Vermont is so blue nobody noticed. However when New Hampshire moved 6 points to the right from 2012 to 2016, that meant it went from Obama winning it by 6 points to it being a tie that Hillary barely won in 2016. I think a big part of Trump’s appeal is he actually talked about the despair among the white working class. They are seeing all their hopes of a good economic life going out the window, and things aren’t getting better. Trump doesn’t have plans, but he actually listened and reflected the economic concerns of working class whites back to them. Granted, he did this in large part by blaming immigrants, trade deals, political corruption and government regulation (it is more income inequality, growing expenses, technological changes and automation that seems to be fucking people over economically). He listened to people and gave them palatable answers. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/30 "2017-02-27T21:51:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > People were “sick and tired of being sick and tired.” They were tired of “same old, same old.” > The best analogy I’ve heard to explain the Trump victory is: Suppose you have a choice of two movies to watch at a theater. Movie A is a boring, but decent-quality, movie that you’ve seen many times before already, and you \*really \*don’t want to have to sit through it again. Movie B is a movie that many people consider awful, really awful, like Sharknado, but at least you’ve never seen before, and so to you it’s fresh and unfamiliar. > When you walk into the theater, which of the two movies would you rather watch? Depends. Will Sharknado be in charge of the military and possibly determine if I get health insurance? I understand what you’re saying, but do people just not really consider the gravity of the president and how it can impact people’s lives? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/31 "2017-02-27T22:04:03Z")
> [@dav345](#): > > …how did he get elected over a seasoned politico who would bring with her a former President as her first hubs? I am not trying to be antagonistic here - I think it’s a valid question. OK. > [@dav345](#): > > I’ll give you a hint - Obamacare effects on work insurance offerings, tiredness with liberals due to obvious media bias and overdoing their favoritism, and a fear of terrorism! Ah! So you already know the answer! But perhaps the real answer is that a lot of stupid voters turned out to vote – gullible know-nothings who responded to an unprecedentedly unorthodox campaign based almost entirely on lies and fear-mongering catering to their hopes and fears. I don’t know how anyone could witness a discussion with the average Trump voter and not believe this to be true. I know it’s fashionable to dismiss simple explanations and look for deep underlying factors to explain things like Trump, but IMHO it’s not especially relevant to make observations about things like economic and security concerns when these things affect everyone, and it’s only when those concerns are filtered through a special kind of low-information mentality that very stupid solutions are embraced. How do you fix this problem? Just look at what Republicans want, and do the opposite. Republicans of the Trumpist variety seek to undermine the already pathetic state of public education, they try to discredit and undermine legitimate media while bolstering their own fake news mouthpieces, they seek to defund and shut down public broadcasting. They know damn well what the institutions of knowledge are, and how to make ignorance prevail to their self-serving benefit. > [@Velocity](#): > > So because two networks are right-wing, means the media as a whole isn’t liberal? You know what? If you think the media as a whole is “liberal”, you must also think that academia as a whole is liberal, and public education is liberal (they teach evolution and climate change!! :eek:), and you must also think that most western democracies are predominantly liberal (they all have universal health care and significant social services! :eek:). If your view is that the whole freaking world is “liberal” except for your own echo chamber, you might want to re-examine how you define “liberal”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/32 "2017-02-27T22:27:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > People vote on feelings. > It’s been nearly four months since Election Day and we still have people (not singling you out personally, but as a general point) wringing their hands and saying, in effect, “Why didn’t voters vote only on the basis of facts/logic/reason and not on feelings/emotion? We had the best charts, we had the best data, we had the best graphs, we had the economic explanations, we had the facts, we had the best scientists, we had the scientific evidence, why didn’t we win???” > > Because, people aren’t robots. Many if not most people don’t walk into the voting booth thinking, “What would be the most intelligent and rational and well-considered vote today?” It turns out that people in a great many countries vote rationally, in the sense that if you ask them who they are voting for and why, they actually have some factual understanding of the issues and what the candidates stand for. And they are not robots. Nor is it an unreasonable expectation to have of a voter. In fact it’s the fundamental basis of a working democracy. Do you really think that the typical enthusiastic hardcore Trump supporter would be able to correctly answer ten factual questions about major national issues, or pass a simple citizenship test, or even know who his own senators and Congressional representatives are and their positions on the issues? Or would they just rant about “Obamacare”, “socialism”, and “Mooslims”? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/33 "2017-02-27T22:33:12Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > do people just not really consider the gravity of the president and how it can impact people’s lives? Often, no. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/34 "2017-02-27T23:10:07Z")
Well, that and who you’d rather have a beer with. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/35 "2017-02-27T23:47:39Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > It would be the equivalent of chopping down a fruit tree that is just short of maturity that hasn’t yielded any fruit on the theory that “this tree must be no good, let’s chop it down and plant a different one.” Replace “a different one” with “an unraveled tractor-trailer tire” and you’re closer. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/36 "2017-02-28T00:01:22Z")
The Director of the FBI shoved a crowbar into the machinery. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/37 "2017-02-28T00:04:43Z")
The problem is a lot of voters are dumb and they made the wrong choice. I don’t care if they think they had good reasons. They still voted for the wrong candidate. If you wanted a better job, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. If you wanted better health care, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. If you wanted a safer world, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. If you wanted a better life for your children, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. Voting for Trump is like refusing to get your kids vaccinated. There was no good reason to do it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/38 "2017-02-28T00:10:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem is a lot of voters are dumb and they made the wrong choice. > > I don’t care if they think they had good reasons. They still voted for the wrong candidate. > > If you wanted a better job, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. If you wanted better health care, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. If you wanted a safer world, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. If you wanted a better life for your children, you shouldn’t have voted for Trump. I often hear that lots of single-issue voters go Republican because “guns” or “abortion”; do you figure _they_ got what they wanted, versus voting for Clinton? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/39 "2017-02-28T00:30:58Z")
Because enough of the US population with just the right geographic distribution is also comprised of awful people. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/40 "2017-02-28T00:36:46Z")
dav345, you’re looking at the election entirely wrong-end up. It was never about who voted for Trump, it was about who stayed home instead of voting for Hillary. [The Non-Voters Who Decided The Election: Trump Won Because Of Lower Democratic Turnout](https://www.forbes.com/sites/omribenshahar/2016/11/17/the-non-voters-who-decided-the-election-trump-won-because-of-lower-democratic-turnout/#7f98861d53ab) is opinion, but appeared on the conservative [forbes.com](http://forbes.com). > [@](#): > > Take Michigan for example. A state that Obama won in 2012 by 350,000 votes, Clinton lost by roughly 10,000. Why? She received 300,000 votes less than Obama did in 2012. Detroit and Wayne County should kick themselves because of the 595,253 votes they gave Obama in 2012, only 518,000 voted for Clinton in 2016. Mote than 75,000 Motown Obama voters did not bother to vote for Clinton! They did not become Trump voters – Trump received only 10,000 votes more than Romney did in this county. They simply stayed at home. If even a fraction of these lethargic Democrats had turned out to vote, Michigan would have stayed blue. > > Wisconsin tells the same numbers story, even more dramatically. Trump got no new votes. He received exactly the same number of votes in America’s Dairyland as Romney did in 2012. Both received 1,409,000 votes. But Clinton again could not spark many Obama voters to turn out for her: she tallied 230,000 votes less than Obama did in 2012. This is how a 200,000-vote victory margin for Obama in the Badger State became a 30,000-vote defeat for Clinton. > > This pattern is national. Clinton’s black voter turnout dropped more than 11 percent compared to 2012. The support for Clinton among active black voters was still exceedingly high (87 percent, versus 93 percent for Obama), but the big difference was the turnout. Almost two million black votes cast for Obama in 2012 did not turn out for Clinton. According to one plausible calculation, if in North Carolina blacks had turned out for Clinton as they had for Obama, she would have won the state. Everybody knew that a white candidate would not draw the percentage of black voters that Obama did. Obama in fact went out and tried to rally black voters to come out in similar numbers. Republicans also knew this and systemically installed hurdles that would make voting more difficult for Clinton’s base supporters. The two effects worked. They can explain the entire total of 75,000 votes that meant Trump’s victory. Voting is complicated and so are voters. With a result this incredibly narrow, many things can account for the difference. However, preemptively cutting out racism and sexism when those things are critical destroys any chance you’ll ever have of understanding the answer to your question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966.md?page=3)