# If Donald Trump is so awful, then... **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 27, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966 "2017-02-27T19:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/61 "2017-02-28T17:04:36Z")
> [@dav345](#): > > \*\*If Donald Trump is so awful, then…how did he get elected over a seasoned politico who would bring with her a former President as her first hubs? > \*\* Repeated Hate-Propaganda to the ignorant sheep-base… via Facebook and YUKU Message Board Shills… over multiple years. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/62 "2017-02-28T17:05:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How important is this to you? If a consequence of Trump’s election is significantly more and more white supremacist and neo-Nazi incidents of violence and vandalism (which may already be occurring), would a single term’s worth of conservative justice nominations be worth it, all other things being equal? You’d have to quantify what “more and more” means, vs. the number of nominations. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/63 "2017-02-28T17:10:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You’d have to quantify what “more and more” means, vs. the number of nominations. Let’s say 5 times more incidents and white-supremacist terrorist attacks over the next 4 years (compared to the average for the past few decades), paired with an average 4-year term’s worth of judicial appointments. What would be the cut off for you, in terms of how many more incidents/attacks for a single term’s worth of judicial appointments? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/64 "2017-02-28T17:16:05Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You’d have to quantify what “more and more” means, vs. the number of nominations. Perhaps you’ll need to quantify what rise of racially motivated incidents would be an acceptable price to pay for each conservative nomination. ETA: ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/65 "2017-02-28T17:29:13Z")
I am being to think Trump is paranoid schizophrenia ! He said "Obama is behind all the protests “! WTF ! This is the last thing Obama would be doing right ,he is too busy enjoying doing all things he wasn’t allowed to do while president . Trump needs to check into a rubber room and so do all of his supporters if they still think Trump is going to " made America great again !” Hate crimes has gotten worst since Trump won ! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/66 "2017-02-28T17:43:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s say 5 times more incidents and white-supremacist terrorist attacks over the next 4 years (compared to the average for the past few decades), paired with an average 4-year term’s worth of judicial appointments. What would be the cut off for you, in terms of how many more incidents/attacks for a single term’s worth of judicial appointments? I’m not trying to be coy, but I don’t have a good sense of what number 5 times more incidents represents. I did a quick search and [found this listing](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/18/white_extremist_murders_killed_at_least_60_in_u_s_since_1995.html?cq_ck=1486485587473) but I don’t know if that is what you had in mind. From that list it seems like Charleston was the incident with the highest number of casualties, though the list ends in 2015. It looks like a couple incidents each year, with 2009 being an outlier which seems related to Obama’s election. Here is information on the [average number of SCOTUS judges appointed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/05/how-many-supreme-court-justices-would-a-president-trump-get-to-appoint/?utm_term=.623d7c6233de): > [@](#): > > On average, presidents have nominated 2.5 justices and seen 1.8 confirmed in their first terms. In subsequent terms, presidents have nominated 2 on average and had 1.5 confirmed." While saying 5 times seems like a lot, it’s of a relatively small number. And taken together with the fact I don’t agree with the concept of hate crimes, that wouldn’t be persuasive enough to forfeit the civil rights of 10s of millions of people. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/67 "2017-02-28T17:50:11Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > While saying 5 times seems like a lot, it’s of a relatively small number. And taken together with the fact I don’t agree with the concept of hate crimes, that wouldn’t be persuasive enough to forfeit the civil rights of 10s of millions of people. By civil rights, are you referring to anything besides guns? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/68 "2017-02-28T17:51:50Z")
I have said it before but by the time the GOP propaganda machine got done with Bernie folks would have thought that he was Joe Stalin with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/69 "2017-02-28T17:59:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not trying to be coy, but I don’t have a good sense of what number 5 times more incidents represents. I did a quick search and [found this listing](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/18/white_extremist_murders_killed_at_least_60_in_u_s_since_1995.html?cq_ck=1486485587473) but I don’t know if that is what you had in mind. From that list it seems like Charleston was the incident with the highest number of casualties, though the list ends in 2015. It looks like a couple incidents each year, with 2009 being an outlier which seems related to Obama’s election. That’s fine, though there are also incidents of vandalism, bomb threats, non-murder but still violent attacks, etc. But I’m not looking for specifics, just very rough estimates. At what point, very roughly, would an increase in racist/bigoted violence and vandalism be so great for you to believe that a term’s worth of liberal justices would be less damaging to the country than this increase in racist/bigoted attacks and incidents? > [@](#): > > Here is information on the [average number of SCOTUS judges appointed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/05/how-many-supreme-court-justices-would-a-president-trump-get-to-appoint/?utm_term=.623d7c6233de): Okay, but it’s not just SCOTUS, but also the lower courts to consider. > [@](#): > > While saying 5 times seems like a lot, it’s of a relatively small number. And taken together with the fact I don’t agree with the concept of hate crimes, that wouldn’t be persuasive enough to forfeit the civil rights of 10s of millions of people. So what number would be persuasive enough? Or put it another way, how much (very roughly) of an increase in the legitimate and reasonable day-to-day fears of American Jews and black people would be enough to be persuasive? For example, if right now, about 1% of American Jews and black people experience significant and rational fear of dangerous or deadly racist/bigoted violence in an average day, about what % of such Americans feeling such fear in an average day would be “too much” in this sense, for you? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/70 "2017-02-28T18:09:40Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not trying to be coy, but I don’t have a good sense of what number 5 times more incidents represents. I did a quick search and [found this listing](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/18/white_extremist_murders_killed_at_least_60_in_u_s_since_1995.html?cq_ck=1486485587473) but I don’t know if that is what you had in mind. From that list it seems like Charleston was the incident with the highest number of casualties, though the list ends in 2015. It looks like a couple incidents each year, with 2009 being an outlier which seems related to Obama’s election. > > Here is information on the [average number of SCOTUS judges appointed](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/05/how-many-supreme-court-justices-would-a-president-trump-get-to-appoint/?utm_term=.623d7c6233de): > While saying 5 times seems like a lot, it’s of a relatively small number. And taken together with the fact I don’t agree with the concept of hate crimes, that wouldn’t be persuasive enough to forfeit the civil rights of 10s of millions of people. But it’s not just conservative judicial appointments to SCOTUS but lower federal court bench appointments that are subject to the administration’s discretion as well. Those matter a great deal too, right? Also, what do you mean by, “I don’t agree with the concept of hate crimes”, exactly? Is it your opinion that the additional dimension of a crime motivated by bigotry should not be considered by the courts in a criminal or civil trial? ETA: Goddammit, ninja’d again. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/71 "2017-02-28T18:20:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, but it’s not just SCOTUS, but also the lower courts to consider. Yes, using SCOTUS is shorthand but I did recognize this in post #59. That strengthens my position. There are currently 4 vacancies in the 9th circuit. Now, with 29 justices, 4 won’t swing the balance of that court but it will help. Of the 29, 18 were nominated by Clinton, Obama, or Carter. Reagan and Bush 43 nominated 7. Four more conservative nominees will increase the chance of a conservative panel and en banc court. > [@](#): > > So what number would be persuasive enough? Or put it another way, how much (very roughly) of an increase in the legitimate and reasonable day-to-day fears of American Jews and black people would be enough to be persuasive? For example, if right now, about 1% of American Jews and black people experience significant and rational fear of dangerous or deadly racist/bigoted violence in an average day, about what % of such Americans feeling such fear in an average day would be “too much” in this sense, for you? I don’t know. It would have to be very high. But even then that is a crime problem, and the answer to crime is stronger enforcement and attacking the causes of crime, not a curtailing of civil rights, IMO of course. Addressing crime is not mutually exclusive from recognizing civil rights. In any event, this was an offshoot from \*\*Little Nemo’\*\*s comment upthread. The idea I was responding to was that there was no rationale reason to support Trump and that’s just not true. The very idea that I’m pushing was identified in the WaPo article I linked. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/72 "2017-02-28T18:37:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Yes, using SCOTUS is shorthand but I did recognize this in post #59. That strengthens my position. There are currently 4 vacancies in the 9th circuit. Now, with 29 justices, 4 won’t swing the balance of that court but it will help. Of the 29, 18 were nominated by Clinton, Obama, or Carter. Reagan and Bush 43 nominated 7. Four more conservative nominees will increase the chance of a conservative panel and en banc court. > I don’t know. It would have to be very high. But even then that is a crime problem, and the answer to crime is stronger enforcement and attacking the causes of crime, not a curtailing of civil rights, IMO of course. Addressing crime is not mutually exclusive from recognizing civil rights. > > In any event, this was an offshoot from \*\*Little Nemo’\*\*s comment upthread. The idea I was responding to was that there was no rationale reason to support Trump and that’s just not true. The very idea that I’m pushing was identified in the WaPo article I linked. I recognize the possible competing concerns, depending on one’s ideology. But I don’t see it as merely a “crime problem” – I see it as a societal problem. Slavery and Jim Crow, and things that extended long past those systems (and may still be occurring in some communities) like mistreatment by law enforcement and Red-lining, weren’t crime problems – they were/are societal and cultural problems. I contend that, by far, the worst and most horrible things in American history have been due to racism or other types of bigotry, and this should be an incredibly important consideration when it comes to politics. In my mind, preventing bigotry from increasing its influence back to the relative norm in American history (by “norm” I mean that, through the vast majority of American history, some degree of white supremacism was the accepted norm in politics and society) should be of the highest importance – even more so than the “correct” judicial nominations. I recognize that this is just an opinion, and others see this as mainly a concern of the past. As a presumably decent and well-meaning person, I would just urge you to please be wary of any possible return to prominence in our society of these sorts of horrible attacks and related incidents. Hopefully my concerns are unwarranted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/73 "2017-02-28T18:45:33Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It turns out that people in a great many countries vote rationally, in the sense that if you ask them who they are voting for and why, they actually have some factual understanding of the issues and what the candidates stand for. And they are not robots. Nor is it an unreasonable expectation to have of a voter. In fact it’s the fundamental basis of a working democracy. Do you really think that the typical enthusiastic hardcore Trump supporter would be able to correctly answer ten factual questions about major national issues, or pass a simple citizenship test, or even know who his own senators and Congressional representatives are and their positions on the issues? Or would they just rant about “Obamacare”, “socialism”, and “Mooslims”? Would you favor requiring such a test in order to vote? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/74 "2017-02-28T18:52:35Z")
For a reminder, [this opinion piece, "I’m a Muslim woman and I voted for Trump,](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2016/11/10/im-a-muslim-a-woman-and-an-immigrant-i-voted-for-trump/?utm_term=.5386b533cbdc) laid out some reasons that appear grounded in rational argument to me. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/75 "2017-02-28T19:12:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For a reminder, [this opinion piece, "I’m a Muslim woman and I voted for Trump,](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2016/11/10/im-a-muslim-a-woman-and-an-immigrant-i-voted-for-trump/?utm_term=.5386b533cbdc) laid out some reasons that appear grounded in rational argument to me. I’m not seeing the rationality. If she expected her health premiums not to go up, she was not grounded in reality. Maybe there were Jews that supported Hitler. Maybe some chickens liked Colonel Sanders. There will always be outliers. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/76 "2017-02-28T19:23:07Z")
Bricker wrote: “Would you favor requiring such a test in order to vote?” I would not, but I wouldn’t be unalterably opposed to weighting the vote in favor of people who can demonstrate basic knowledge of how our governmental system actually works. Makes more sense to me than weighting the vote in favor of people who live in Wyoming. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/77 "2017-02-28T19:52:01Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > I am being to think Trump is paranoid schizophrenia ! He said "Obama is behind all the protests "! WTF ! This is the last thing Obama would be doing right ,he is too busy enjoying doing all things he wasn’t allowed to do while president . … Yeah, Trump needs a focus for his hatemongering. “Muslims” is a bit diffuse (though he’ll keep that in play). Hillary isn’t much fun to beat up on, now that she’s out of the public eye. But OBAMA…yes. Obama…responsible for organizing half that is evil and nearly all that is undetected in this great nation…muwahahaha!!! Yeah, that’ll keep 'em riled up. > [@E-DUB](#): > > I have said it before but by the time the GOP propaganda machine got done with Bernie folks would have thought that he was Joe Stalin with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Yes. If Sanders had been Trump’s opponent, Trump would have won in an \*actual \*landslide (as opposed to the fantasy one he’s been trying to sell as real). ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/78 "2017-02-28T19:56:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For a reminder, [this opinion piece, "I’m a Muslim woman and I voted for Trump,](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2016/11/10/im-a-muslim-a-woman-and-an-immigrant-i-voted-for-trump/?utm_term=.5386b533cbdc) laid out some reasons that appear grounded in rational argument to me. Interesting you’d mention this woman. I recently watched her on Real Time with Bill Maher. I think she’s been on his show several times and has been making the rounds on various media outlets speaking out as a self proclaimed liberal in support of Trump. She claims to be strongly in support of women’s rights, pro-choice, and various other typically liberal platforms. But, she voted for Trump because she agrees with his anti- Islamic extremist policies and calls those who criticize her as being from the “Liberal Honour Brigade”. Listening to her speak on these issues on various venues, I question her commitment to Sparkle Motion. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/79 "2017-02-28T20:35:39Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > You have three candidates. > > Sanders: I know the Working and Middle Classes have been devastated by Reagonomics and Clintonomics. I’m going to to do something about it by making it so everyone is comfortable, just like the Nordic countries did when they faced the same situation > > Trump: I know the Working and Middle Classes have been devastated by Reagonomics and Clintonomics. I’m going to to do something about it by deporting illegal aliens that are taking our jobs and get our jobs back from the Chinese. > > Clinton: Vote for me, It’s my turn and I’m not candidate Trump > > With Sanders vs Trump it probably would have gone to Sanders, but that’s not who we had to pick from. Sanders would have taken a significant part of the populist vote as well as being someone exciting to entice Democrats to get out and vote, and either one of these alone probably could have tipped the election. You have some filter there. Of course, you realize that Trump’s economic policy is Reaganomics to a T, right? Same old trickle-down, voodoo economics bullshit that was disproven decades ago. Also, claiming that Clinton wasn’t the one talking about the issues is either deluded or revisionist. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966/80 "2017-02-28T20:45:15Z")
How does anyone take anything seriously that a man says who actually thinks that the Oscars flub was all about him? Then it’s Obama masterminding the plot against him. He can’t seem to go a day without going out of his way to prove his total narcissism. It’s Nixonian paranoia on public display. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-donald-trump-is-so-awful-then/780966.md?page=5)