# If education is so important, why have I used nothing I learned beyond 8th grade? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 22, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282 "2012-01-22T04:53:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/101 "2012-01-27T07:33:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is why almost everybody goes to high school, and most people go to college. > > The company I work for now is constantly recruiting through numerous resources, only accepts applicants who are college graduates (with one notable exception), and less than 1% of applicants can make it past the application stage. Why? Because despite their education, often from the most prestigious schools in the US, very few applicants have the ability to think. Faced with any situation they have not been previously prepped for, they have nothing to offer. Abstracting to the knowledge and skills they’ve allegedly developed seems to be beyond them. I don’t think any of them would have any problem given a little experience in the real world, they are bright people, but large sums of their parents money have been spent futilely. Given a high school education based on learning how to think, how to learn, and how to apply, most would have been more productive at age 18 than they are at age 22 following their conventional education. I’m curious about how you determine someone’s ability to think. Do you use tests? Short interviews? Brain scans? Someone with exposure to a subject through one course is going to have enough information to abstract as well as someone working in the field for 10 years. And some people do an excellent job working without much abstraction at all. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/102 "2012-01-27T07:43:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Actually people do pull all nighters dabbling in stuff that interests them. I doubt it happens much with the people who worship at the church of academia. They expect someone to support them while they dabble. Gee, the all nighters I pulled were all about problem sets - hardly dabbling. And my CS and EE classes took as much or more time than the philosophy classes I took which were dabbling. Both the colleges my kids went to pushed them to graduate on time also. > [@](#): > > Great skill. 16 years of school is far more than is necessary to acquire it though. The stuff I hire people to do is more than they are going to get in 16 years. That is just enough for the basics, not the specialization I need. > [@](#): > > Yes, you’ve got me there. A moron is slightly dumber than a college grad who doesn’t know how to think. Sometimes. But sometimes the dropout has the world figured out, so he’s not a moron. And sometimes the dropout just thinks wrong, but still knows how to think, and life will correct his mistake very quickly. That’s not what the data says. Most of us think we are smarter than we really are. I’m not going to believe the dropout who says he self-studied and knows everything. Back when PCs were first coming out, my CS professor friends dreaded each new crop of freshmen. They had taught themselves how to program, in BASIC, on their computers and were convinced they knew everything they needed to know about computer science. Not fucking hardly. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/103 "2012-01-27T09:06:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m curious about how you determine someone’s ability to think. Do you use tests? Short interviews? Brain scans? > Someone with exposure to a subject through one course is going to have enough information to abstract as well as someone working in the field for 10 years. And some people do an excellent job working without much abstraction at all. Give them a simple problem to solve using unfamiliar terms and rules. The particular problem here has been used elsewhere with non-college grads, and success doesn’t seem to be the least bit based on a persons formal educational level. Specialized knowledge is useless if it can’t be applied, and in my experience, people who can apply knowledge have little difficulty acquiring it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/104 "2012-01-27T09:21:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Gee, the all nighters I pulled were all about problem sets - hardly dabbling. And my CS and EE classes took as much or more time than the philosophy classes I took which were dabbling. Both the colleges my kids went to pushed them to graduate on time also. I’m not sure of your point. Were you forced to pull those all nighters, or did you do it by choice? > [@](#): > > The stuff I hire people to do is more than they are going to get in 16 years. That is just enough for the basics, not the specialization I need. The 16 years of school was more than sufficient to learn how to stick to an uninteresting task, not to acquire specialized knowledge. See my comments on the application of knowledge in the previous post for that subject. > [@](#): > > That’s not what the data says. > Most of us think we are smarter than we really are. I’m not going to believe the dropout who says he self-studied and knows everything. Back when PCs were first coming out, my CS professor friends dreaded each new crop of freshmen. They had taught themselves how to program, in BASIC, on their computers and were convinced they knew everything they needed to know about computer science. Not fucking hardly. Are they still running those ads in comic books about the guy who quits school to go work as a mechanic? Hardly any people drop out of school because they think they know everything. And using academics as an example of the failure of self study is as convoluted as it gets. I had a CS prof tell me how he discovered extra RAM on his PC because it was only supposed to have 48000 bytes and it reported 49152 bytes\*. All this demonstrates is that CS professors lack thinking skills and are the least capable people of assisting others in development of those skills. \*This is the absolute worst case I ever encountered, and this guy held a position at a poorly regarded institution. I don’t want to make this sound like a typical example. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/105 "2012-01-27T10:40:02Z")
I know you aren’t claiming this is a typical example, but you do seem to assert that CS professors as a group lack thinking skills on the evidence that one CS professor was unaware of a particular linguistic oddity, which seems unduly harsh… Indeed, in a sense, he is right that had “extra” RAM, “extra” in the sense of more than its description seemed to indicate. He apparently did not catch on to the full cause of this phenomenon, but, hey, I wouldn’t recognize 49152 as 48 \* 2^10 offhand either, particularly if no one ever told me memory was typically provided in chunks of size large powers of 2, with language being abused slightly to accommodate. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/106 "2012-01-27T12:18:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes, you’ve got me there. A moron is slightly dumber than a college grad who doesn’t know how to think. Sometimes. But sometimes the dropout has the world figured out, so he’s not a moron. And sometimes the dropout just thinks wrong, but still knows how to think, and life will correct his mistake very quickly. How is anyone supposed to know that the uneducated person “knows how to think”? And what does that even actually mean to you? That they managed to spend several years reinforcing their already existing opinions by only studying material that interests them or already validates what they think they know? That you don’t have to train them or give them any guidance? I know this much. If I’m looking at two candidates, one with a degree and one without, at the very least the one with the degree actually completed the work. > [@TriPolar](#): > > This is the absolute worst case I ever encountered, and this guy held a position at a poorly regarded institution. I don’t want to make this sound like a typical example. Fortunately my formal education in statistics allows me to realize your annecdotal data point is irrelevant. > [@TriPolar](#): > > The company I work for now is constantly recruiting through numerous resources, only accepts applicants who are college graduates (with one notable exception), and less than 1% of applicants can make it past the application stage. Why? Because despite their education, often from the most prestigious schools in the US, very few applicants have the ability to think. Faced with any situation they have not been previously prepped for, they have nothing to offer What does your company hire them to do? And how would you identify a candidate with the skills to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Dinnerz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Dinnerz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinnerz)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/107 "2012-01-27T12:34:51Z")
Admittedly, and indeed regrettably I once said to my Maths (…I’m English) teacher “I will never use any of this in my life so why do i have to learn it?” Less than a month of leaving Secondary school at the age of 16, i required the majority of what we were being taught to complete a TST (Technical Selection Test) the results of which were to determine whether i possessed the intelligence to even begin learning my chosen trade in the Army. Further still, said maths skills turn out to be the major component required for my selected trade. Don’t get me wrong, i do not and will not use everything i was taught, but is there harm in being taught it purely on the basis of “just incase?” ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/108 "2012-01-28T01:33:44Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Give them a simple problem to solve using unfamiliar terms and rules. The particular problem here has been used elsewhere with non-college grads, and success doesn’t seem to be the least bit based on a persons formal educational level. Specialized knowledge is useless if it can’t be applied, and in my experience, people who can apply knowledge have little difficulty acquiring it. I am curious as to what this problem is. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/109 "2012-01-28T01:39:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Give them a simple problem to solve using unfamiliar terms and rules. Ah, yes, the old “we’ve got a magic key that guarantees we hire the right people” myth. You might as well just pick 'em at random. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/110 "2012-01-28T01:53:29Z")
It’s one thing to convince yourself that you understand something, and quite another to convince people who already understand it. I almost think that’s one of the biggest benefits of school. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/111 "2012-01-30T23:22:48Z")
I’m just wondering what these magical “jobs” are people expect to land in that don’t require any sort of formal background in anything and yet aren’t waiting tables or folding T-shirts in the mall. Maybe some sales jobs if you are “salesy” enough to charm your way into a company. And of course there is the ubiquitous self taught computer expert. But I’m pretty sure most good jobs require some sort of background in something. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/112 "2012-01-30T23:35:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’m just wondering what these magical “jobs” are people expect to land in that don’t require any sort of formal background in anything and yet aren’t waiting tables or folding T-shirts in the mall. Maybe some sales jobs if you are “salesy” enough to charm your way into a company. And of course there is the ubiquitous self taught computer expert. But I’m pretty sure most good jobs require some sort of background in something. Who says there are good jobs for people with no background? My point is that schools are often inefficient at providing that background, and don’t provide many skills actually required for the job. I’ve heard several lawyers complain about law school grads who thoroughly studied the law, more than they’ll ever use, but know nothing about the practice of law. And that many things can be self taught, or learned outside of school, the way good old Abe Lincoln became a lawyer. And of course there are those people who can generally be called ‘businessmen’. There have been many successful businessmen whose practical knowledge didn’t come from school. I think school often dissuades people from the kind of independent thinking that has produced great businessmen. Bill Gates great success didn’t come from his technical knowledge, but good business sense. I know plenty of people who started succesful businesses, and even if they have college degrees, they’ll tell you their success was based on the skills and knowledge acquired in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/113 "2012-01-31T00:27:18Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Actually, **aruvqan’s** idea resembles the system in the Netherlands fairly closely, and as a system of education it ranks as one of the best in the world. > > Children choose a high school at age 12, having been tested for abilities. There are 3 types of high school: > > MAVO: ends a 16 and leads to vocational training > HAVO: ends at 17 and leads to what internationally is called university, but wouldn’t be a really good uni > VWO: ends at 18 and leads to top universities > > You can switch around at any time and you can always carry on with your schooling. You would never be trapped in one stream. In practice, it’s pretty clear anyone from any background can and does go into any of the three options. Many, many students move between the three. Both my sisters started out doing HAVO but added on an extra year to do VWO. No big deal. > > It has the obvious advantage that you are taught things much more specific to you, on your level. Everyone still gets the basic skills. 12 seems to me to be a little young; kids then are usually still just kids. Decisions about what vocational track you should take are not best suited to kids still so young that a lot of them probably still have Disney wallpaper. I don’t think a kid should be barred from, or even find it more difficult to access, a career as a medical doctor based on test taken when he was 12. In the UK, it’s 16, partly as a matter of convenience; at 16 you can leave home and make your own choices. There are, and always have been, different educational ‘tracks’ to take after 16, vocational, academic or a mix. Starting these tracks a year or two earlier would probably help some kids, and various govt programmes over the past 20 years have tried to make this happen, but they’ve always faltered for some reason. One thing that I do think is really good about this system is that, at 16, most people already have qualifications. They don’t have to wait to get an all-encompassing high school diploma or international baccalaureate - GCSEs are qualifications that stand alone, not just as prep for higher level exams. Do many other countries have that? I mean, of those that have post-16 education at all. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/114 "2012-02-01T17:13:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Who says there are good jobs for people with no background? My point is that schools are often inefficient at providing that background, and don’t provide many skills actually required for the job. I’ve heard several lawyers complain about law school grads who thoroughly studied the law, more than they’ll ever use, but know nothing about the practice of law. And that many things can be self taught, or learned outside of school, the way good old Abe Lincoln became a lawyer. And of course there are those people who can generally be called ‘businessmen’. There have been many successful businessmen whose practical knowledge didn’t come from school. I think school often dissuades people from the kind of independent thinking that has produced great businessmen. Bill Gates great success didn’t come from his technical knowledge, but good business sense. I know plenty of people who started succesful businesses, and even if they have college degrees, they’ll tell you their success was based on the skills and knowledge acquired in the real world. College isn’t going to teach you how to invent a billion dollar industry. It’s there to provide a background and education so that maybe you can come up with those ideas on your own. Or at worst, you’ll have accomplished something that indicates you can spend 4 years working on projects and meeting deadlines. Of course most skill and experience comes from the “real world”. I spent 6 years in college and business school. How can that compare to 20 years working in the business world? That doesn’t mean I didn’t learn anything in school. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/115 "2012-02-01T18:04:00Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > College isn’t going to teach you how to invent a billion dollar industry. It’s there to provide a background and education so that maybe you can come up with those ideas on your own. Or at worst, you’ll have accomplished something that indicates you can spend 4 years working on projects and meeting deadlines. > > Of course most skill and experience comes from the “real world”. I spent 6 years in college and business school. How can that compare to 20 years working in the business world? That doesn’t mean I didn’t learn anything in school. I don’t think school is worthless, just inefficient, sometimes unnecessary, and not comprehensive in many areas. You might have noticed the rise in internships as an integral part of college programs, and prospective students who rate the schools based on their internship programs. For an education degree, I understand that student teaching has been moved way up in the program. In the past there were numerous washouts once the graduates moved out to student teach, because in their entire 4 year program to learn how to be a teacher they had never done any teaching. Some people just aren’t suited for the job. As GWBush once said, “it’s a terrible thing to lose your mind.” ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/116 "2012-02-01T18:58:19Z")
That was Quail. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/117 "2012-02-01T19:20:40Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > That was Quail. Right. And it’s a lot of fun searching for that and finding all the dumb things both those guys said. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282/118 "2012-02-01T20:55:00Z")
I don’t fit this category. I took a class in grad school as a credit. I was able to turn what I learned in that one class into three seperate contracts over the years that probably paid me ten times what I paid in college tuition. And my primary career is based on my college education. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-education-is-so-important-why-have-i-used-nothing-i-learned-beyond-8th-grade/610282.md?page=5)