# If Einstein got it all wrong - expert opinions needed **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026 "2010-05-11T08:53:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/61 "2010-05-13T13:49:05Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > My mind is set to a simpler reality, where both light and sound are waves (nothing but waves). Space-time curvation was only an idea and became manifested because nobody came up with something else. Space-time curvature was able to explain a lot of observed phenomena without having to invoke extra theories. It also predicted effects, such as gravitational lensing, that we have tested and found to be true. This is without invoking extra theories. Therefore, if something is able to explain observed phenomena _and_ make testable predictions that are verified by observations, why do we need to invoke a more complex scenario? Also, if light is nothing but a wave, how do you explain the [photoelectric effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect) and things like that? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/62 "2010-05-13T14:03:34Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > My mind is set to a simpler reality, where both light and sound are waves (nothing but waves). Space-time curvation was only an idea and became manifested because nobody came up with something else. Admit it, **Angua** - the whole “space-time curvature” thing is just something scientists came up with because they couldn’t be bothered to do any real research. Also, you know evolutionary theory? [Here’s why](http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/comic%20charles%20darwin%20monkey%20day%20jared%20hindman.jpg) Darwin came up with it. ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/63 "2010-05-13T14:06:47Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > Also, if light is nothing but a wave, how do you explain the [photoelectric effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect) and things like that? How do you explain Inverse-square law and luminance with photons? ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/64 "2010-05-13T14:37:20Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > How do you explain Inverse-square law and luminance with photons? By acknowledging the wave-particle duality of photons. And before you start, it _is_ a demonstrable effect. Now, you’re going to have to explain the photoelectric effect in terms of waves to me and how we have electron diffraction. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/65 "2010-05-13T14:38:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Admit it, **Angua** - the whole “space-time curvature” thing is just something scientists came up with because they couldn’t be bothered to do any real research. Damn! We’re busted! Yeah, actually, we just sorta sit around, drinking coffee, shooting the shit and making stuff up whilst totally off our heads on caffeine. ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/66 "2010-05-13T15:13:38Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > By acknowledging the wave-particle duality of photons. And before you start, it _is_ a demonstrable effect. Now, you’re going to have to explain the photoelectric effect in terms of waves to me and how we have electron diffraction. Let’s leave the electrons out - we were talking about particles with no mass or rather no particles at all. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/67 "2010-05-13T15:14:53Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > Let’s leave the electrons out - we were talking about particles with no mass or rather no particles at all. OK. Now explain the photoelectric effect. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/68 "2010-05-13T15:40:30Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > My mind is set to a simpler reality, where both light and sound are waves (nothing but waves). Space-time curvation was only an idea and became manifested because nobody came up with something else. So here’s the scenario, right? Einstein spent ten years working with mathematicians and physicists all over Europe to formulate General Relativity. People didn’t buy it until they went out and did actual tests, during which they found out that its predictions worked better than any theory in history ever had. But that wasn’t sufficient. Even if it worked for one set of tests, it might not work for others. So scientists went out and tested thousands upon thousands of natural events. And other scientists devised hundreds and hundreds of alternate theories to see if they could get the everlasting fame of besting Einstein. A century passes. Genera Relativity has passed every test thrown at it, although it still can’t explain all the millions of mysteries in the universe. None of the other theories do quite as well as explaining everything, although some have advantages in small ways. An epic battle continues to rage in every scientific journal to come up with THE answer, the one that will give you the Nobel Prize. And this is what you call scientists doing nothing? And the reason you don’t accept General Relativity is because you want light to be a wave? Regardless of the fact that that has nothing to do with relativity, which doesn’t care if light is waves or particles or the real quantum wavicles that everybody today assumes it is? (And remember that Einstein won his Nobel Prize for proving the photoelectric effect, which requires that photons have a particle nature in certain experiments.) How are we supposed to argue against a belief like this? ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/69 "2010-05-13T15:43:16Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > OK. Now explain the photoelectric effect. This will take sometime, because I’m watching Emmerdale Marathon (An English Soap Opera), but where do you need particles. The work of electrons can be converted to similar wave-energy. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/70 "2010-05-13T15:47:48Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > This will take sometime, because I’m watching Emmerdale Marathon (An English Soap Opera), but where do you need particles. The work of electrons can be converted to similar wave-energy. Oh puh-lease. Put up already and quit with the excuses, this is just getting silly. You’re seriously now trying to argue that Einstein was totally wrong, that all our telescopes are flawed, and that a century of experiments is nothing but BS? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/71 "2010-05-13T15:55:05Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > Oh puh-lease. Put up already and quit with the excuses, this is just getting silly. You’re seriously now trying to argue that Einstein was totally wrong, that all our telescopes are flawed, and that a century of experiments is nothing but BS? :dubious: I really cannot comprehend all your messages. I just say that you don’t need particles. I’m still watching my favourite program - in the meanwhile: ALL YOU NON-PARTICLE PEOPLE - stand up and let them hear your piece! ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/72 "2010-05-13T15:58:23Z")
:facepalms: ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/73 "2010-05-13T16:36:42Z")
When your favorite program ends, try tackling this one. Particles have a property called spin (formally fermionic intrinsic spin). They aren’t actually spinning, but the property is analogous to angular momentum, so we can call it that for convenience. They can have either a right-handed spin or a left-handed spin. The weak force is known to affect only particles with left-handed spin. To quote Lisa Randall: > [@](#): > > For example, a left-handed electron would experience the weak force, whereas one spinning to the right would not. Experiments show this clearly… Please explain this in terms of waves. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/74 "2010-05-13T16:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > How do you explain Inverse-square law and luminance with photons? Much more easily than I can with waves, actually. A light source emits a bunch of photons, in many different directions. If I have a screen of a certain size a certain distance away from the light source, I’ll intercept some of those photons. If I move the screen further away, I’ll intercept fewer of them. If you calculate out just how many photons I’ll intercept, you’ll find that the number is proportional to the inverse square of the distance. > [@](#): > > This will take sometime, because I’m watching Emmerdale Marathon (An English Soap Opera), but where do you need particles. The work of electrons can be converted to similar wave-energy. So you’re saying that because electrons have wave-particle duality, it makes perfect sense to assume that photons don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/75 "2010-05-13T16:54:07Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > I really cannot comprehend all your messages. I just say that you don’t need particles. You are only coming through in waves. Your lips move but I can’t hear what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/76 "2010-05-13T17:07:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Much more easily than I can with waves, actually. A light source emits a bunch of photons, in many different directions. If I have a screen of a certain size a certain distance away from the light source, I’ll intercept some of those photons. If I move the screen further away, I’ll intercept fewer of them. If you calculate out just how many photons I’ll intercept, you’ll find that the number is proportional to the inverse square of the distance. > > So you’re saying that because electrons have wave-particle duality, it makes perfect sense to assume that photons don’t? Actually I was waiting this (from Angua, though). If you have a bunch of photons, how can they go everywhere. If you are talking in numbers, there are places where the photons go , and so there must be a place where the photon do not go - that is the law with numbers. Can you distinguish the places where these photons don’t go? Are there places with no light at all? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/77 "2010-05-13T17:24:57Z")
Forget light - SOUND is only a wave? The phenomenon that requires a medium consisting of vibrating atoms and is transmitted by atoms bumping into each other? THAT sound? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/78 "2010-05-13T17:25:07Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > Actually I was waiting this (from Angua, though). If you have a bunch of photons, how can they go everywhere. If you are talking in numbers, there are places where the photons go , and so there must be a place where the photon do not go - that is the law with numbers. Can you distinguish the places where these photons don’t go? Are there places with no light at all? You seem to think that it’s all or nothing - a particle OR a wave. If so, ISM that your understanding of such things is limited (possibly by choice, i.e. repudiating all that doesn’t fit in with your _Weltanschauung_). ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/79 "2010-05-13T17:31:32Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > You seem to think that it’s all or nothing - a particle OR a wave. If so, ISM that your understanding of such things is limited (possibly by choice, i.e. repudiating all that doesn’t fit in with your _Weltanschauung_). HAPPY EQUALS GOOD WELTANSCHAUUNG EQUALS … And by choice, YES ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026/80 "2010-05-13T17:33:42Z")
> [@katunari](#): > > HAPPY EQUALS GOOD > WELTANSCHAUUNG EQUALS … > And by choice, YES By coincidence, I just happen to have a dictionary handy. [Here you go](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Weltanschauung+). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-einstein-got-it-all-wrong-expert-opinions-needed/539026.md?page=5)