# If Europeans had settled in Africa would they have done a better job than current Africans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648 "2016-05-25T12:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/61 "2016-05-27T05:28:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, for a smallish area. But there were some of the Moundbuilders that were largish empires on the East coast. Your ignorance of pre-contact Native Americans is showing - firstly, the Moundbuilders were mostly in the Great Lakes and Ohio & Mississippi Valleys, not East Coast. Second, they weren’t the only agriculturalists before 1492, _most_ NA inhabitants were agriculturalists. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/62 "2016-05-27T05:32:52Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Put another way: If you want to claim that India of 2016 is better off than India of 1616 in many ways, I won’t disagree with you there. The same applies to most of the world. > > But if you want to argue that India of 2016 in our colonial reality is significantly better off than India of 2016 in the counterfactual timeline where it was spared colonialism? Yeah, sure… It’s just a coincidence the colonizers ended up the rich ones and the colonized the poor ones. :rolleyes: Great point, well put. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/63 "2016-05-27T05:44:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > OK\< let us take the North American natives. > > Before 1492 they were hungry, illiterate, constantly warring and slavery was common. They had no defenses against disease, and 40 was old. Yes, but all of this was also true of Europeans before 1492, except that it was a different range of diseases to which they had no defences. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Then the white man came and fucked everything up for a century or two. > > Now we have today. The _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy, I think. Are you saying that if Europeans had not the Americas in the way they did, socially and economically the Americas would now be very much as they were in 1492? 'Cause, you know, that’s not a position I could take seriously. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You think the natives are better off today or before Columbus? Would you rather be a slave growing maize then or living on the rez now? Can you say “false dichotomy”? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/64 "2016-05-27T07:30:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Only right at the end, in their own estimation. As far as they British were concerned, they were rebellious colonists. They weren’t British, so how can they be rebellious? > [@](#): > > And metropole is a legitimate term of art in this field, there’s no need for the scare quotes. Sorry, those weren’t meant as “scare quotes” . I meant to emphasise that the Boers didn’t have a european metropole. They were Dutch stettlers with no real remaining ties to the Netherlands. > [@](#): > > No, not really. They never _replaced_ the indigenes in their new homelands, just lived beside them (and lorded it over them) That is not a criterium for being a _Volkswanderer_. Hardly ever have new populations completely wiped out the previous ones. The typical case is exactly that they just replace the ruling elite and maybe military caste. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/65 "2016-05-27T09:38:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You think the natives are better off today or before Columbus? Would you rather be a slave growing maize then or living on the rez now? We do what we must because we can For the good of all of us (Except the ones who are dead). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/66 "2016-05-27T11:00:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This completely ignores that we should be considering what the situation might be _today_. Would you rather be a peasant on a _Spanish_ estate in 1491, or living on a reservation now? Hell, I wouldn’t want to be a _lady_ in Spain in 1491! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/67 "2016-05-27T11:30:38Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > They weren’t British, so how can they be rebellious? They were citizens of a British colony, and had been for at least an entire generation. > [@](#): > > Sorry, those weren’t meant as “scare quotes” . I meant to emphasise that the Boers didn’t have a european metropole. They were Dutch stettlers with no real remaining ties to the Netherlands. No, the metropole in this case was London. There’s even a term of art for[colonialism that uses foreign colonists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogate_Colonialism). They may not have wanted it that way, but that was the reality, as the failures of their attempted breakaways showed. South African colonies existed for the ultimate benefit of the British - whether that be the Cape harbours or Witwatersrand gold. > [@](#): > > That is not a criterium for being a _Volkswanderer_. Hardly ever have new populations completely wiped out the previous ones. Yet that seems to be exactly what the Bantu did (well, displaced, not wiped out) and the Celts in Britain. But I agree I was too prescriptive there as to what constitutes _Volkerwanderung_. I was mostly trying to highlight the difference between what the Boers did, and what the Bantu did. > [@](#): > > The typical case is exactly that they just replace the ruling elite and maybe military caste. Which the Boers did not do. They did not in any way integrate with the locals and replace their hierarchies, they just ruled over them while leaving them largely intact. That’s much more imperial hegemony a-la Rome than _Volkerwanderung_. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/68 "2016-05-27T11:53:35Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Hell, I wouldn’t want to be a _lady_ in Spain in 1491! I adore you. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/69 "2016-05-27T12:06:00Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Hell, I wouldn’t want to be a _lady_ in Spain in 1491! I dunno you get a pretty neat [Royal Navy sea shanty](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpmv_zOa0k) out of that deal. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/70 "2016-05-27T12:54:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I gave that all the response that “Boers are what made South Africa great” deserved. In another thread we’re discussing this topic. The consensus is that merely stating something is nonsense is an insufficient response. If you say something is nonsense, you should go on to explain why it is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/71 "2016-05-27T13:44:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In another thread we’re discussing this topic. The consensus is that merely stating something is nonsense is an insufficient response. If you say something is nonsense, you should go on to explain why it is. Can’t be bothered to, other than to say - if _any_ Europeans made South Africa great, it was the British, and the Boers are responsible for holding it back. Just a little example - we only got TV in South Africa i_n 1976_. Not because we didn’t have the tech, but purely because the Boers in charge were backwards fuckheads. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/72 "2016-05-27T16:37:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In another thread we’re discussing this topic. The consensus is that merely stating something is nonsense is an insufficient response. If you say something is nonsense, you should go on to explain why it is. Which other thread is that? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/73 "2016-05-27T17:36:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Your ignorance of pre-contact Native Americans is showing - firstly, the Moundbuilders were mostly in the Great Lakes and Ohio & Mississippi Valleys, not East Coast. Second, they weren’t the only agriculturalists before 1492, _most_ NA inhabitants were agriculturalists. East of the Mississippi. > **[Mound Builders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_Builders#/media/File:Hopewellsphere2_map_HRoe_2008.jpg)** > > Many pre-Columbian cultures in North America were collectively termed "Mound Builders", but the term has no formal meaning. It does not refer to specific people or archaeological culture but refers to the characteristic mound earthworks that indigenous peoples erected for an extended period of more than 5,000 years. The "Mound Builder" cultures span the period of roughly 3500 BCE (the construction of Watson Brake) to the 16th century CE, including the Archaic period (Horr's Island), Woodland pe... I like that “ignorance” thing, it really brings the level of the debate up. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/74 "2016-05-27T17:37:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I gave that all the response that “Boers are what made South Africa great” deserved. Of course, that’s not what I said. And it seems to be your usual level of reasoned discourse here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/75 "2016-05-27T17:41:46Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ fallacy, I think. Are you saying that if Europeans had not the Americas in the way they did, socially and economically the Americas would now be very much as they were in 1492? 'Cause, you know, that’s not a position I could take seriously. Well, if the Europeans had never visited the America’s can you say they would have advanced any? They failed to do so for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/76 "2016-05-27T17:53:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, if the Europeans had never visited the America’s can you say they would have advanced any? They failed to do so for centuries. They would have advanced some. There, I said it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/77 "2016-05-27T18:03:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > East of the Mississippi. > [Mound Builders - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_Builders#/media/File:Hopewellsphere2_map_HRoe_2008.jpg) > > I like that “ignorance” thing, it really brings the level of the debate up. :rolleyes: You did say “East Coast”, not “East of the Mississippi”. If you mis-spoke, just say so. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/78 "2016-05-27T18:21:51Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You did say “East Coast”, not “East of the Mississippi”. If you mis-spoke, just say so. There was some level of Mound Builder settlement in Georgia, which can be considered “East Coast”. But these weren’t large empires run on slavery. The original assertion was bogus, though, and trying to wriggle out of it on a highly questionable technicality is rather pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/79 "2016-05-27T18:36:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They would have advanced some. There, I said it. Maybe. What indicators do you have that would show this? I see no advances in technology. In fact North America was largely in a decline just before Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648/80 "2016-05-27T18:50:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There was some level of Mound Builder settlement in Georgia, which can be considered “East Coast”. But these weren’t large empires run on slavery. The original assertion was bogus, though, and trying to wriggle out of it on a highly questionable technicality is rather pathetic. > **[Pre-Columbian – An Indigenous History of North America](https://indigenoushistory.wordpress.com/category/pre-columbian/)** > > Posts about Pre-Columbian written by Kai I\*ndigenous Traditions of Slavery The period from 900 to 1700 CE in the southeast is known as the Mississippian period. During this time, people lived primarily in provinces composed of towns that paid tribute to a mico, or chief, who inherited his position through the maternal line. Power was established through deeds of war, so provinces frequently fought with one another. As a part of this, captives were often taken, although frequently in earlier times even women and children were killed rather than taken captive. These war captives were given to wealthy people in the provinces for workers. Being a slave was defined by being not a part of the kinship system, which was essential to society. Lacking kinship connections, slaves were isolated. However, by adoption or marriage they could become part of a clan and thus leave their state of slavery by entering the kinship system.\* > **[A Brief History of Slavery](https://books.google.com/books?id=shbBBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT27&lpg=PT27&dq=slavery%2Bin%2Bpre-columbian%2Bamerica&source=bl&ots=Bh_RpVKnIx&sig=U6BSR0asT1p0mJZzOf3QMO6pTi8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj79Y-79vrMAhVJdT4KHYqXBUU4ChDoAQg1MAQ#v=onepage&q=slavery%20in%20pre-columbian%20america&f=false)** > > A thought-provoking and important book that raises essential issues crucial not only for understanding our past but also the present day.In this panoramic history, Jeremy Black tells how slavery was first developed in the ancient world, and reaches... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-europeans-had-settled-in-africa-would-they-have-done-a-better-job-than-current-africans/755648.md?page=5)