# If Fidel passes, whither Cuba? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363 "2012-10-20T21:58:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/41 "2012-10-22T00:24:17Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > A good friend of mine travels to Cuba 6-8 times a year on business. He once told that every Cubans goal is to get off the island. I asked a Cuban if that was true. He said they only want to leave the island because they can’t. In other words, if they could leave it then it wouldn’t be a priority. I think the Cuban is correct. All the Cubans I have known are very proud of their island and culture. It’s true that Cubans are very proud of their island and culture. But I wouldn’t say that people only want to leave because they can’t. They want to leave because they want economic opportunity, which is severely limited on the island. > [@](#): > > Thanks to Castro, every Cuban can read. It is unfortunate that they can only read approved party content (no internet). Every Cuban has access to the finest doctors in the world. And of course there is no fee. These are two huge accomplishments. In the future, I hope to see big changes on the island. And they will come. Unfortunately it won’t be rapid. The saying goes that the greatest achievements of the Revolution have been health, education, and sports…and the greatest failures have been breakfast, lunch, and dinner.🙂 I think Cubans in Cuba are very ambivalent about the system. On the one hand there are the accomplishments in health and education, and the fact that Cuba remains prominent on the world stage (though not as much so as during the Cold War) because of their defiance of Uncle Sam. On the other they are enormously frustrated by shortages of food and consumer goods and the lack of economic opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/42 "2012-10-22T01:13:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I thought you said you weren’t going to keep on hijacking this thread. I was responding to your post. That said, I have not interest in continuing this discussion with you and you’ve given me little interest to believe that any further arguments from you would be original, thought-provoking, or would give me any further reason to keep up the discussion. So, unless you wish to take this to the pit, I recommend dropping it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/43 "2012-10-22T03:05:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was responding to your post. > > That said, I have not interest in continuing this discussion with you and you’ve given me little interest to believe that any further arguments from you would be original, thought-provoking, or would give me any further reason to keep up the discussion. > > So, unless you wish to take this to the pit, I recommend dropping it. You weren’t responding to my post, you were responding to **Der Trihs** I’d consider Pitting you, but 1. As a moderator, I’m not allowed to. 2. I really don’t want to deal with any more walls of text. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/44 "2012-10-22T03:18:32Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You weren’t responding to my post, you were responding to **Der Trihs** I apologize. I was responding while watching a movie and for some reason thought it was Der Trihs responding. I certainly wouldn’t have been so hostile to you since you’ve never said you thought most women were untrustworthy manhaters and haven’t argued that all men should secretly videotape all their sexual encounters because women are so untrustworthy. Sorry for the confusion and apologies for my grossly inappropriate reaction. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/45 "2012-10-22T03:53:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > …Penelope Cruz(who’s not even from Latin America)". This whole line of argument is absurd. I’ve forgotten more more about Cuba than you claim to know about Iran. Seriously, on the particulars, try to learn something from **Colibiri’s** \* description if not mine – which you happened to ignore. \*Not big with mods or the other way around – but when a _poster_ is right, he is _right_. * * * As to the OP…just hope Cuba doesn’t end-up with the same ‘democracy’ that 90% of Spanish-speaking countries in the Caribbean & Central America have. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/46 "2012-10-22T04:21:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > This whole line of argument is absurd. Not sure your point. I’ve said repeatedly that in this thread, on threads regarding George Zimmerman, and on friends regarding Eva Longoria that it’s asinine to automatically classify Latinos as non-whites. I thought you remembered since you’ve participated in some of those threads regarding George Zimmerman. Nevertheless, many Cuban-Americans and most Americans insist that Cuban-Americans are “brown” or “people of color” rather than being “blancos” or “blancas”. Similarly, since you claim that you live in Europe, I’m sure you’re familiar with how most people in Europe believe that Turks and Arabs aren’t “white” even though most(excluding North African Arabs and even then only some) are “Mediterranean whites”(to use one scholar’s description). For that matter, Germans in the 1970s regularly referred to Turks, Algerians, and Moroccans as “Schwarzes”(blacks). It may seem foolish to you to classify Cuban-Americans like Rick Sanchez and Jose Canseco as “people of color” or “non-whites” but that is how they are regarded by Americans. Who is “white” and “non-white” is not objective or scientific, but is in the eye of the beholder. My point was that using Der Trihs insistence that people like this woman are “brown-skinned” [http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1193/zallaschtsadat3.jpg](http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/1193/zallaschtsadat3.jpg) Then people like this [http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2011/07/Jose-Canseco.jpg](http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2011/07/Jose-Canseco.jpg) are also brown-skinned, if one wants to keep up the pretense that who is “white” and who is “brown” is easy to determine. > [@](#): > > I’ve forgotten more more about Cuba than you claim to know about Iran. I really hope you’re not accusing me of lying here. I know you have an exceptionally simplistic view of the Middle East, have displayed extreme ignorance of the region, and have shown little concern for the actual plight or cause of either the Palestinians or the Iranians, but I do give you the benefit of the doubt and like to believe you’re motivated by more than hatred and jealousy of the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/47 "2012-10-22T05:15:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not sure your point. > > I’ve said repeatedly that in this thread, on threads regarding George Zimmerman, and on friends regarding Eva Longoria that it’s asinine to automatically classify Latinos as non-whites. Great. Now drop it, it’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/48 "2012-10-22T05:17:18Z")
[Fidel appears in public](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/10/2012102222745972444.html) . . . so, not yet. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/49 "2012-10-22T05:22:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Fidel appears in public](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2012/10/2012102222745972444.html) . . . so, not yet. The photo looks like something out of Weekend at Bernie’s, though.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/50 "2012-10-22T05:56:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Great. Now drop it, it’s irrelevant. I was responding to Red, not you, so please don’t try and be so presumptuous as to tell me what to do. There may come a time when I give shit what you think, respect your opinions, or think your beliefs are based on research or knowledge as opposed to asinine assumptions and a quick skimming of wikipedia, but today is not the day. Beyond that, please stop the junior modding and read up on the subjects you pretend you give a shit about. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/51 "2012-10-22T06:02:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The photo looks like something out of Weekend at Bernie’s, though.😉 Still, when I learned that the news of the death or stroke of Castro came from a “Venezuelan doctor in Miami” I wondered if it was the same doctor that declared that Hugo Chavez had just months to live early in the year. Some news outfits never learn or people just ignore the past burns. 🙂 I still think that one big part why Chavez won was that most of the right wing media was demonstrated to be unreliable when Chavez did not curl up and die as promised. As for Castro, I had him on my death pool but I dropped him as there are very little points to be gained now. 😃 I do agree that more changes in Cuba will take place when he dies. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/52 "2012-10-22T09:46:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was responding to Red, not you, so please don’t try and be so presumptuous as to tell me what to do. > > There may come a time when I give shit what you think, respect your opinions, or think your beliefs are based on research or knowledge as opposed to asinine assumptions and a quick skimming of wikipedia, but today is not the day. > > Beyond that, please stop the junior modding and read up on the subjects you pretend you give a shit about. I’ve been reading this thread and am pretty struck by your lone mission to turn a question about Cuba into a question about race, which is…weird. I have been to Cuba, and know that Cubans come in all colours, from Scandinavian blonde to sub-Saharan dark, so trying to twist a Cuba discussion into a race issue is just a little bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2012, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/53 "2012-10-22T10:32:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I was responding to your post. > > That said, I have not interest in continuing this discussion with you and you’ve given me little interest to believe that any further arguments from you would be original, thought-provoking, or would give me any further reason to keep up the discussion. > > So, unless you wish to take this to the pit, I recommend dropping it. That will be my exact Moderator instructions to you on the entire topic of race or racial perception in this thread. If you think that it is a topic worth discussing, open a new thread and leave this one alone. If you think that it is worth attacking other posters, then do it in The BBQ Pit. = = = That goes for everyone else who may feel that they need to respond to “racial” or ethnic comments, as well. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/54 "2012-10-25T17:34:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I doubt we would do so just because they got a democratic government. Most of the driving force for the continuing embargo is from the Cuban exile community in Florida, and I don’t see them as being willing to accept anything less than them being handed large amounts of money, land and power in Cuba. It’s less important for ending the embargo that Castro die off, than it is that they die off. The small group now extant who are called the ‘exile community’ hardly have enough clout to control a national embargo. They are old, and few. The rest of the US has their own opinions, and the votes are reflected in US policy. The magical powers of the Miami crew are greatly overestimated. Castro make Kennedy/US eat a little poo, then became a nuclear threat for a while, siding with our archenemies during the Cold War. Right or wrong, the nation, as a whole, blames Castro, and has never forgiven him. Once Fidel goes, the whole mess will straighten up. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363/55 "2012-10-25T19:13:59Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > The small group now extant who are called the ‘exile community’ hardly have enough clout to control a national embargo. They are old, and few. Not too few to have enough clout to prevent the embargo from being lifted. Their clout is enormously magnified because Florida is such a crucial swing state. The Elian Gonzales case arguably cost Gore the 2000 election. It’s just not worth it for the national political parties to risk pissing them off too much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-fidel-passes-whither-cuba/638363.md?page=2)