tons of soul-deforming things happen to originally innocent people, things that contribute to their insanity or psychopathy till they become consciousless criminals. It’s stuff like that which I can see as being arguments against an all-loving all-powerful God. It’s only my hope in ultimate redemption by an ultimately a-l a-p God in Jesus that gives me any comfort on that issue (included in that is the belief that in Jesus, God experienced human suffering & injustice Himself.)
That is actually an argument specifically against the Judeo-Christian God, who is described as being omniscient, omnipotent, and all-loving. The argument is that a being possessed of those 3 characteristics logically cannot, by it’s very nature, allow suffering to exist. And I don’t consider that to be the “big” argument. The “big” argument is that there is simply no empirical evidence for God’s existence. Another argument is that there are many many religions, all believing in different gods, and most claiming that their god is the only god.
But few people claim that a hateful God exists, and there is certainly no objective evidence of a hateful God, so the question is unimportant. Your time would be better spent worrying about being attacked by the Loch Ness Monster than worrying about an evil God. Besides which, if such a god did exist, would you worship it?
Libertarian, your ability to cut to the chase with a short, concise response is one thing I enjoy most about your posting style.
As to the OP: I can’t say I’m exactly sure why this question gets asked so often. God created man with independence of thought and action; if man were capable of being perfectly good on his own, he would not need God. Such is clearly not the case. Knowing this, why would one presume that thoughts and actions by bad people would not then impact good people? By allowing such independence, free will if you choose, God thus allows man to learn, the hard way all too often, that his choice of action or behavior is flawed. History bears this out. Today, in the 21st century, man has not learned to restrain his darker impulses. Arguably, some of - if not the - worst of history’s despots have ruled in our lifetime.
By this demonstration, God draws man back to Him. It is in this relationship that man understands that this life, with all its pleasures and pains, is not the sum total of existence.
But if God created man, then surely man is simply acting according to his nature, which was created by God. If man is evil, then the blame for his being evil rests on God.
And surely you cannot say that innocent people have never suffered. If God has the ability to prevent the innocent from suffering, and does not do so, how can you say He is all-loving?
Please read Genesis 6. Note that God specifies that in 120 years he will destroy the world due to man’s evil nature. Ample warning. Then please read Exodus 11. After the increasing harshness of his punishments on Egypt for refusing to free the Israelites, God send Moses to Pharoah warning him in advance of His intention to kill the firstborn sons of Egypt. Omnipotent God has demonstrated His majesty and man rejected it. Foolish men, but there you have it.
As to your appeal on behalf of the children of Egypt; let my remind you that Adam’s decision to follow his own desires, contrary to God, had lasting repercussions. I find it almost funny that anyone could alternately demand personal freedom and independence and then blame God when others abuse that same freedom.
Say to them, "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!
Ezekiel 33:11
How do people exist independently of their bodies?
Didn’t this god created man? So wasn’t this god responsible for any nature of man, be it good or evil?
If a car blows up due to faulty designs, you won’t blame the car, will you?
Where does it say this in the bible, or did you pull it out from thin air?
Yeah, but He’s supposed to be OMNIPOTENT. That means He can just will the Isrealites to be free. He doesn’t have to kill any innocent children. And you can’t use the “freewill” argument, because you’ve already established that God HAS interfered. If He interfered, then He didn’t give the Egyptians free will, did He? The whole thing is just silly. He had the power to make the slaves free by a simple wave of the hand, as it were, yet chose to play Sky-Daddy and say, “Now you’re gonna get it - kiss your babies good-bye”. You can spend your whole life defending that scenario, but when it comes down to it, doesn’t it make a lot more sense that it’s JUST A STORY? In other words, it’s a parable - it didn’t really happen.
No, you aren’t getting it. Nobody’s blaming God, they’re saying that God doesn’t exist at all (at least not the God as described in the Bible).
Man was created with the moral capacity to choose good and evil. Adam chose evil. Had God created man without this crucial distinction, man would have been nothing more than an automaton, programmed to follow orders without dissent.
I see, so you think that man should have individual freedom, but no responsibility? God will pick up the pieces whenever man screws things up? Children expect parents to do just that. As for innocence, again I would argue that evil people do evil things, frequently to good people. And all too often the players change teams without changing uniforms.
Responsible, as in correcting and controlling the resulting error. Yes, and I believe our entire existence has been part of His plan to do just that. Responsible, as in paying the penalty for Adam’s sin? No. God created man, gave him specific knowledge, and Adam then chose to disobey God. As for good and evil, you would then have to give them equal weight in your calculations, neither being inherently, demonstrably better.
Your implication the God created a faulty man, eh? How about this, then. If the manufacturer of said car tells you to use as fuel only ‘gasoline’ and you choose ‘water’, you don’t get your money back, do you?
And who is “reponsible”, for example, when a child is born with a life-threatening disablility? Perchance it did something wrong while it was in the womb?
C’mon. Don’t be obtuse. Implicit in God’s communication of His will to Adam is the recognition of man’s ability to *think and upon thinking, to act.
First, that God can choose to do anything at anytime does not, based on your imperfect judgement, necessitate that He do so. Second, in your estimation the children are innocent. Yet Pharoah, despite repeated warnings and signs, continues to resist God’s will. Why, then, do you blame only God?
In that case, why are you arguing anything in a thread about God?
No, you aren’t getting it. Nobody’s blaming God, they’re saying that God doesn’t exist at all (at least not the God as described in the Bible). **
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You leap to the conclusion without considering the multiplicity of causes. Drug use by the mother? Genetic error? Pollutants in the air, water or food? Other? Could be any one of these. You might choose to believe that God made this happen, but that also disregards man’s free will. I would characterize it as God allowing it to happen, in much the same way that every parent allows a child to suffer small things in order to avoid suffering bigger things. If this short life is just a dot in the context of an eternal existence, then it would seem God is doing the same, just on a larger scale.
My take on it is this: The Bible is the history of man’s rebellion (sin) against God, and the resulting loss of the intimate relationship with God He had intended. It is, ultimately, the story of God’s rectification of that situation through a perfect substitute for the punishment man’s sin deserved, which allows man to resume fellowship with God. But, forgiveness cannot be given without repentance.
Ramanujan wrote:
Apos wrote:
Urban Ranger wrote:
“Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit… The Spirit gives Life. The flesh counts for nothing… God is Spirit, and His worshippers must worship in Spirit and in Truth.” — Jesus
Goodness is the most valuable aesthetic because it is valued by God. Love is the means by which goodness is shared. God is Love.
Can I prove scientifically that God exists? No. No more than I can prove scientifically that a Shakespearean sonnet is beautiful. Many people will disagree that it is beautiful. Science is not the sole epistemology. It is not the validation of our existence. It has a purpose to be sure, but its purpose is narrow: to falsify that which can be falsified. As a matter of fact, science cannot even test the very principle upon which it is founded — falsifiability — since that principle is not itself falsifiable.
Can I prove logically that God exists? Yes, I can. To my satisfaction, at least. I can present you an argument that, even if you disagree that it is sound, you will have to agree (assuming an honest intellect) that it is valid. Your disagreement will have to be, not with the argument, but with one or more premises from which the argument follows.
Can I prove objectively that God exists? No. If there is an objective reality, none of us can experience it. If we assume that each of us is as real as the other, we run into the problem that none of us can experience the preceptions of the rest of us. If perception is a part of material reality — as a manifestation of synaptic activity — then we must conclude that an objective reality includes all our perceptions. No two people have ever perceived the exact same experience at the exact same place at the exact same time in the exact same way; therefore, we have no common frame of reference in which to share our perceptions. Close, maybe, but no cigar. If you insist on the rigors of science and logic, you may not accept close as definitive. Only an existence that is objectively real, an existence that can perceive all our experiences, an existence that exists necessarily (i.e., in all possible worlds) — only that sort of existence has a reference frame that is meaningful for objective proof.
Whatever is objectively real is whatever objectively exists. For life to be real, it must be eternal and universal, because only then could the reality be objective and include every perception everywhere and always. If the atoms are temporal, then they are not real. They are mirages of existence. Dying. Decaying. Moving relentlessly toward an impotent and irreversible entropy even as we speak.
Jesus teaches (and I choose to believe) that there is an existence beyond the material. “My kingdom is not of this world.” — Jesus. He recognizes an awareness in man that is above and beyond synaptic perception. He recognizes a gestalt perception that is born in man’s spirit. He sees man as a dual creature: dying among the atoms as flesh, and living in God’s Kingdom as Spirit. One temporal, and the other eternal.
He sees moral decisions as decisions that are made by the spirit, and not the brain. It is what a man treasures that will inexorably draw him toward his moral decisions. He will manifestly pursue that which he values most. “Where your treasure is, there your heart is also.” — Jesus. If a man values goodness above all else, then his treasure and his heart coincide with God’s own. He is like God.
A man can be blind physically but still see spiritually; and a man can have perfect physical vision but be spiritually blind. A man can be deaf and hear nothing with his ears; but with his heart, he can still hear God’s symphony of Love. Likewise, even though he hears every noise around him with his ears, he will not hear God’s voice if his heart is closed. God speaks to the spirit, that part of us which is created in His image and in His likeness. That Spirit is our essential selves. “The Kingdom of God is within you.” — Jesus
Have I convinced you if you do not believe? Probably not, and it doesn’t matter anyway. Intellectual belief is trivial. The so-called “Church” is filled to the rafters with people who mouth the words but do not speak with God’s voice. They see the Bible as God’s Word and invoke law as though it were inherently good. They see Love as a deed, and they keep score — who has done the most good, who has the deepest understanding of the law, who is best qualified to lead the body politic that they call their church. “They are like whitewashed tombs, clean and white on the outside, but inside, full of dead bones and decay.” — Jesus.
Love and goodness are not found in intellectual understanding or deeds that are mere motor responses to brain stimulus. Love and goodness are found in pure hearts, hearts that value the same aesthetic that is valued by God.
If you murder a man’s body, you have destroyed nothing of significance. Yes, there is significance in the life of the man, but the life of the man has not been destroyed. Yes, there is significance in the moral decision you made, but the decision was made by your spirit. Your brain merely carried out its orders. You made a spiritual decision that you do not value goodness. Your brain merely carried out your evil intent.
You cannot judge goodness by deeds alone. Brains can misfire. Some people have brains that cannot and will not do what their spirit desires. This does not mean they are bad people. If a man suffers mental retardation or brain damage, he cannot be judged immoral simply because he murders another man. Only atoms have died. The man who is murdered still lives. And only God — Whose experience is objective, Who knows the perceptions of both, Who is Himself the very source of Life — can know the heart of the murderer.
We judge by standards that are morally impure and objectively insufficient. We cannot step inside another man’s experience and perception. We do not know whether a deed done was good or not. Here is a man who is feeding the homeless. Is he doing good? How can we know? Perhaps he is luring the homeless into his own nefarious purpose. Here is another man who has stolen a purse. Is he doing evil? How can we know? Maybe it is his only means of feeding a starving child.
When all the earth and the universe is consumed by entropy, that which is objectively real will live on. This phase of our existence is not even a blink. We all can agree and understand intellectually that the Trail of Tears and the Holocaust were manifestations of material evil. But we are not sufficiently equipped with a universal and eternal frame of reference to perceive the spiritual significance of either event.
If there is an eternal and universal Kingdom that is not of this world, then significance is in what happens there, not what happens here. What happens here is a mere shadow of what is really happening. We can look at a man’s shadow, and given sufficient reasoning ability, judge certain things about him. But in his shadow, we do not see the expression on his face or the look in his eyes.
A man might be a slave on earth, but a ruler in Heaven. He might be a beggar here, but have all riches there. He might seem to us the most horrible scoundrel in history’s long list of scoundrels, but there he might be the most loving spirit we will ever know. We just simply lack the capacity to judge such things. “The first shall be last, and the last first.” — Jesus.
So what are we to do? We cannot control the lives of others. We cannot perceive with objective perception. Should we just give up and watch as the world burns with evil? No. We should give our attention to ourselves. Whatever goodness might come to the world through us begins in our own hearts. Does it bother you that people starve? Then feed people. Does it bother you that children are abused? Then rescue the children. Does it bother you that innocent people languish in prison at the hands of an unjust body politic? Then visit them and let them know you love them. Let your own goodness pour out into them. Be like God for them. “Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” — Jesus.
NaSultainne wrote:
God go with you.
Yes, how dare those infants and toddlers fail to heed god’s warnings! The nerve of them!!
BZZZT! We’re sorry, NaSultainne, but you’ve exceeded the “weak rationalization” limit for our game. Thank you for playing. Don, please tell NaSultainne about our wonderful parting gifts…
Wow, Lib, there goes your reputation for “short, concise responses”.
NaSultainne, you keep using the free will dodge. Can we cut to the chase here? Are you saying that whenever bad things happen to good people it’s really because they are being punished for something, even if that something is so obscure and indirect that neither the victim nor anyone else will ever make the connection?
It doesn’t seem like this is answerable.
My son wants to know why God doesn’t answer his prayers, ehck He doesn’t answer mine, either.
But its not like theres anyone else to ask…
the old, well, God is too hard for us mortals to fiugre out.
Vanilla wrote:
“They look and look, but do not see. They listen and listen, but do not hear.” — Jesus