# If god is omnipotent, why does he let you suffer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2000, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813 "2000-03-21T07:03:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PDmach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de053/32.png) [@PDmach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PDmach)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/21 "2000-03-21T21:55:00Z")
I believe that the people who wrote the bible were limited by their experiences, and described what they could not logically explain, quite rightly, as supernatural. To address the the topic question directly: “If god is omnipotent, why does he let you suffer?” _ **I choose whether I will suffer under a given circumstance or not.** _ Since realizing this, I have suffered far less than before, simply by realizing it that it is not necessarily what I choose to experience. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/22 "2000-03-21T21:56:00Z")
::cough:: Pharoah ::cough:: _And_ I was arguing to PDMach, whose God could not interfere in atoms, by say, making the fire go out. Geez, it’s hard enough to keep all these Gods straight without having to defend my argument against _one_ God from someone who follows a God with differnet traits. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/23 "2000-03-21T22:31:00Z")
About which God or god are we talking about? Lots of other gods seem to be quite pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![PDmach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9de053/32.png) [@PDmach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PDmach)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/24 "2000-03-21T22:33:00Z")
I’m talking about the one who made a big bang, plunked down some preamoebic plasma-type slime and said, “Wonder what happens now…?” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/25 "2000-03-21T22:36:00Z")
Oh, Gaudere, you know God very well. After all, you are full of Him. In fact, you are more full of Him than a _whole_ lotta people. ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/26 "2000-03-21T22:49:00Z")
**Lib:** Take a deep breath dude. You of all people should know _precisely_ how I go about questioning someone’s character. 😉 Ducking a question is not a mortal sin. Your second answer is more informative. However, I think you have a contradiction there. Let me make it clear to everyone that personally, I’m an atheist (and thus theodicy is a non-issue in my personal philosophy), but I’m discussing this issue on the basis of **rational theology**. I’m sincerely accepting (for the purposes of argument) the existence of God, and that at least some of His attributes are rationally determinable. I assume from my knowledge of Christian theology that we’re talking about a God with three critical attributes: Omnipotence, omniscience and ombnibenevolence. If you remove any one of those three, theodicy becomes trivial or unnecessary. Additionally we assume that God created everything, either directly or indirectly. On to my argument: First, to claim that disease results from the need to grant moral freedom obviously lacks any merit. I will show that the “amoral atoms” argument also lacks merit. We can make a valid deduction from the given properties of omnipotence and omniscience: The universe exists _precisely_ according to God’s will. Any “natural” consequences are, by definition, **foreseeable** (or God is not omniscient) and **preventable** (or God is not omnipotent). One is always morally responsible for the forseeable and preventable consequences of ones actions. To claim, “I’m not responsible for his death, it was the **amoral atoms** of the bullet that did it.” is an obviouisly transparent evasion. Therefore, the existence of disease is an intentional expression of God’s will. Q.E.D. As far as continuing the Nazi discussion, I’ll have to bone up on my theodicy this weekend to address that. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/27 "2000-03-21T23:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > One is always morally responsible for the forseeable and preventable consequences of ones actions. I believe the argument against this is that God does not know what you are going to _do_, he knows what you _did_, since he exists in all times at once. Otherwise, you run into the free will problem, too. Personally, I am doubtful that our world properly displays the hand of a wholly good God…I mean, did we _really_ need parasitic worms that grow inside us and poke their little heads out of our legs when they get big enough? (I’ve been watching too much Discovery channel.) Couldn’t we have done just _fine_ without those nasty little buggers? Why, Lib, they’re worse than socialists! ::d&r:: * * * Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically , we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/28 "2000-03-22T01:06:00Z")
**PDmach** wrote: > [@](#): > > I choose whether I will suffer under a given circumstance or not. Since realizing this, I have suffered far less than before, simply by realizing it that it is not necessarily what I choose to experience. Heh. Liebnitz has an argument that this is in fact **The Best of All Possible Worlds**. It goes something like this: 1. In order to create the best of all possible worlds, God would have to have the knowledge, the power and the desire. 2. If God is _omniscient_, then he would know how to create TBOAPW. 3. If God is _omnipotent_, then he would have the power to create TBOAPW. 4. If God is _omnibenevolent_, then he would not choose other than to create TBOAPW. 5. God is _omniscient, omnipotent_ and _omnibenevolent_. 6. Therefore, this is **The Best of All Possible Worlds** So, if you think there’s evil in the world, suffering, it’s probably all your imagination. “Ah,” says the skeptic. “But you don’t really believe you can double-think the suffering of the whole world away and dismiss it as a figment of our collective imagination? In fact, can we really accept that this is **The Best of All Possible Worlds**?” Thus, one man’s _modus ponens_ becomes another man’s _modus tolens_: 5’) This is not the best of all possible worlds. 6’) God is not _omniscient, omnipotent_ and _omnibenevolent_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/29 "2000-03-22T02:28:00Z")
Pdmach: > [@](#): > > Short answer: The omnipotent being allows you to choose whether you will suffer in given circumstances or not. That is YOUR omnipotence. No, I don’t. I don’t choose to suffer, but I suffer anyway. Gilligan > [@](#): > > A person’s physical body has to die of something, Why? Libertarian > [@](#): > > But given a set, A, such that A = {X, Y}, now you may choose between X or Y, and that is exactly what a free moral agent does, he chooses. Life on earth is a tapestry of good and evil, giving a rich context from which we, as free moral agents, may make moral choices. You seem to be assuming that given any set of cardinality greater than one, at least one element must be “good” and another “bad”. What’s wrong with choosing between two choices, both of which are good? For instance, in your Chocolate vs. vanilla example, there is no ability to cause. No matter which you choose, it’s not going to hurt anyone. Is the choice therefore not a “real” choice? If I were to live my entire life without having the opportunity to kill someone else, would you consider my life to be unfulfilling? > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## But, since you claim an omnipotent God, you have to accept that these horrible “environmental instabilities” were indeed created by God. > > Whyzzat? > > His ability to do everything does not necessarily imply that He did do everything. An a priori assumption on your part does not constitute an obligation to prove your assumption on my part. Are you saying that you don’t believe that God is the Creator? That he only created part of the universe, and some of the universe was created by some other force? > [@](#): > > That’s just something that happens with atoms. You are trying to ascribe moral responsibility to God for the amorality of nature. But didn’t God create nature? PDmach > [@](#): > > God cannot intervene, to do so would be to deny that we have free will. It’s not evil, it’s impartial. Can you explain that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/30 "2000-03-22T03:09:00Z")
And another thing: what’s with all the laws that are supposedly ordained by God? If stopping people from hurting others compromises their free will, then shouldn’t we just let everyone do what they want? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/31 "2000-03-22T04:41:00Z")
**The Ryan** wrote: > [@](#): > > And another thing: what’s with all the laws that are supposedly ordained by God? If stopping people from hurting others compromises their free will, then shouldn’t we just let everyone do what they want? More to the point, why doesn’t God? The problem with the `free will’ argument is that it assumes that God, who is supposed to be omnipotent, could not make a world in which free will was possible but evil not possible. Bringing up this point, the strongest response I’ve ever gotten was that it simply isn’t possible to have free will without evil – that such an idea is incoherent. If that’s the case, then this stands as an argument against the omnipotence of God. Like the **Rock Paradox** , is God constrained by the **Principle of Non-Contradiction**. Thus, we have the following dilemma: The **Free Will** argument only holds if God is constrained by the **Principle of Non-Contradiction** and therefore not omnipotent. This is fine if you find it acceptable to place limits on God, except that if you do you don’t need the **Free Will Argument** in the first place. Thus, the **Free Will** argument assumes what it is intended to disprove. ---
**Author:** ![Ophanim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8491ac/32.png) [@Ophanim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ophanim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/32 "2000-03-22T04:45:00Z")
Wow Lib! You’re regular Thomas Aquinas! God “allows” you to suffer. That is true. God loves you enough to give you the freedon to suffer. It’s all about freedom my friend. If God made the world a bliss filled utopia, then we’d be little more than slaves to his will. He has given us the gift of pain. It allows us to make a clear decision on whether we want to be a part of his heavenly host. This is a DECISION. Pain is the basis on which we judge happiness. Our lives are the time given us to make the decision on whether or not we want to join the heavenly host. Where do you want to go? If you think it sucks here, wait’ll you see Hell. Why do children die? It’s a good question. God NEVER does something without a good reason. Perhaps they sacrifice themselves as a lesson to others, or maybe their life was going to be such a trial that God let them not live it. Whatever the reason, it’s important to know that God has one. Why so many diseases? Look at the world now. It’s on the edge of famine and you wonder why there is a thinning in the flock. Sometime, sacrifices MUST be made for the greater GOOD. Aids is a no brainer, God said sex is for marriage, and marriage is sanctity. We said, SHUT UP, sex is fun, and marriage? That animal can be killed in court. Well, here’s the thing, irony sucks, get used to it. * * * Where’s my side of FUN!? Kisses! Ophy ---
**Author:** ![Ophanim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8491ac/32.png) [@Ophanim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ophanim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/33 "2000-03-22T04:50:00Z")
I like the cut of your jib Johnny. It looks as if we were on the same page at the same time. * * * Where’s my side of FUN!? Kisses! Ophy ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/34 "2000-03-22T04:55:00Z")
As said in the film ‘Fight Club’, you have to accept the possibility that God doesn’t like you, that he may even hate you. ---
**Author:** ![Ophanim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8491ac/32.png) [@Ophanim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ophanim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/35 "2000-03-22T04:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Gaudere: > \*\*Well, except God _has_ intervened quite directly before, if you believe the Bible. \*\* God intervened directly because it was a necessity. There was no Jesus and no “easy” gate to Heaven back during Old Testament times, therefore it was imperative that God would intervene. * * * Where’s my side of FUN!? Kisses! Ophy ---
**Author:** ![Ophanim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8491ac/32.png) [@Ophanim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ophanim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/36 "2000-03-22T05:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by spooje… SPOOJE!: > **As said in the film ‘Fight Club’, you have to accept the possibility that God doesn’t like you, that he may even hate you.** I not gonna say that the idea of God hating someone isn’t funny (namely because it really is!) but that’s all it is. God hates nobody. God even loves Satan, a Father (especially one so loving as God)doesn’t hate his children NO MATTER WHAT STUPID THING THEY DO! * * * Where’s my side of FUN!? Kisses! Ophy ---
**Author:** ![Ophanim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8491ac/32.png) [@Ophanim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ophanim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/37 "2000-03-22T05:09:00Z")
[quote] Originally posted by The Ryan: \*\*Pdmach: > [@](#): > > but didn’t God create nature?B] Yes God created nature, He created it as a system, not a free thinking lifeform. Nature has no soul, it cannot make a decision, and God does not control it directly. When you drive a car, do you think that the person who created that car is somehow controlling it? Making it work perhaps? The reason it stops when it’s out of gas? No! A car is a system. Just like nature * * * Where’s my side of FUN!? Kisses! Ophy ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/38 "2000-03-22T05:19:00Z")
It is the Christian view that God created man in “His image and likeness”-that is perfect-without disease, suffering, or death. God then gave the garden of Eden over to man with only one rule- "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; \*\*but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you _shall not eat_, for in the day that you eat from it _you shall surely die._ The serpent then told the original lie (which continues in many forms today)-“You surely shall not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” In other words, God did not create man with the knowledge of good and evil, and it is through man’s disobedience of God’s one and only rule that brought us disease & death. That is the answer to the OP. :: ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/39 "2000-03-22T05:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > In other words, God did not create man with the knowledge of good and evil, and it is through man’s disobedience of God’s one and only rule that brought us disease & death. But if they didn’t know good and evil, how could they know it was wrong to disobey? * * * Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813/40 "2000-03-22T05:23:00Z")
WOW Everyone is so verbose and eloquent. K.I.S.S. :rolleyes: Every time I hit my thumb with a hammer it hurts. Bad. I don’t care about free will participation in divine macinations(thanks Glen Cook) It just hurts. If some god made this happen: F**K HIM.(or HER) If not: F**K ME \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Salaam [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-is-omnipotent-why-does-he-let-you-suffer/17813.md?page=3)