Sorry for the belated response, I didn’t these until they were pointed out on another thread.
What I think is odd Diogenes is that even post our extensive debate, you still cling to the simplistic idea that references to hell were only about the extermination of souls. Didn’t you once admit that bad souls were tormented for some indefinite time period before the last judgment? The last time we talked I thought you only objection was to the length of said torment.
Anyway for your further edification here is a discussion on hell with links to just about any other Greek, Hebrew word for it that you wish. Also here, again, is where Jesus discusses conscious torment after death.
Now for me, your description of hell being death is not wholly without merit, but biblically speaking it sure isn’t a slam dunk. Whether Jesus taught that unbelievers have their souls tortured eternally, tortured then killed, or just murdered with such expediency as to make Hitler green with envy, is fairly immaterial. Jesus and/or his god are still monsters.
Also, just like heaven, the trinity, the bible, and anything godly, I still think the raindog described hell best when he called it a “man-made fabrication—and borne of man made traditions, folklore, fiction and politics…” Don’t you agree?
You have addressed Diogenes so I’ll limit my response. You misquoted me. I said a burning hell. Hell is represented well in the bible, and is associated with simple death, or the common grave. This post in this thread lists the word hell and some of the ways it was translated. At any rate, Diogenes’s rendering of hell is a slam dunk, unless someone ascribes literal qualities to a clear metaphor, or is ignorant of Jewish history. (like the Valley of Hinnom for example) Accepting a burning hell must also be done in the face of the hundreds of other times in the bible where the words Haides, Hades, Sheol,Sheohl, Gehenna, Geenna are used in ways that clearly associate them with nothing more than death, or the grave. (the exact same words used to describe a burning hell)
[QUOTE=badchad]
Sorry for the belated response, I didn’t these until they were pointed out on another thread.
What I think is odd Diogenes is that even post our extensive debate, you still cling to the simplistic idea that references to hell were only about the extermination of souls. Didn’t you once admit that bad souls were tormented for some indefinite time period before the last judgment? The last time we talked I thought you only objection was to the length of said torment.
My “edification?” That’s a good one. You’ll notice that Wikipedia doesn’t actually disagree with me on any of my definitions (I would have to correct it if it did). The one passage you’re still holding onto is the Lazarus parable which makes reference to a rich man burning in flames in Hades. This represents a late Hellenistic influence on Jewish afterlife beliefs in which the temporary underworld Sheol (routinely translated into Greek as “Hades”) was sometimes envisioned as being partitioned into a good part (sometime scalled “the Bosom of Abraham”) and a bad part where some temporary punishment was inflicted. You are correct that I’ve pointed out before that it was still believed that all residents of Sheol (which in the OT is little more than a figurative reference to death or the grave) were ultimately going to be resurrected and judged and that the bad people would be annihilated so even the Lazarus parable does not speak of 'Hell" in the sense of a place of eternal, conscious torment.
It’s a slam dunk that the Bible does not say anything about an eternal Hell, that Sheol was a concept which evolved from nothing more than the grave to Greek influenced conceptions of temporary punishment/reward before the resurrection and judgement (and you can claim the Lazarus parable as an example of some conscious punishment, I suppose) and that the ultimate dispensation for bad people claimed in the Bible is annihilation, not eternal torment.
Is annihilation of the soul “murder?” I think I would prefer it to eternal life, personally. Incidentally, the quotations attributed to Jesus do not define the criteria for eternal life in terms of belief but in terms of compassion. Jesus said that all you have to do to get eternal life is follow the Golden Rule.
My “edification?” That’s a good one. You’ll notice that Wikipedia doesn’t actually disagree with me on any of my definitions (I would have to correct it if it did). The one passage you’re still holding onto is the Lazarus parable which makes reference to a rich man burning in flames in Hades. This represents a late Hellenistic influence on Jewish afterlife beliefs in which the temporary underworld Sheol (routinely translated into Greek as “Hades”) was sometimes envisioned as being partitioned into a good part (sometime scalled “the Bosom of Abraham”) and a bad part where some temporary punishment was inflicted. You are correct that I’ve pointed out before that it was still believed that all residents of Sheol (which in the OT is little more than a figurative reference to death or the grave) were ultimately going to be resurrected and judged and that the bad people would be annihilated so even the Lazarus parable does not speak of 'Hell" in the sense of a place of eternal, conscious torment.
It’s a slam dunk that the Bible does not say anything about an eternal Hell, that Sheol was a concept which evolved from nothing more than the grave to Greek influenced conceptions of temporary punishment/reward before the resurrection and judgement (and you can claim the Lazarus parable as an example of some conscious punishment, I suppose) and that the ultimate dispensation for bad people claimed in the Bible is annihilation, not eternal torment.
Is annihilation of the soul “murder?” I think I would prefer it to eternal life, personally. Incidentally, the quotations attributed to Jesus do not define the criteria for eternal life in terms of belief but in terms of compassion. Jesus said that all you have to do to get eternal life is follow the Golden Rule.
Gehenna Hell would almost by definition have to be a burning one, since that was the
defining element of the historical valley of Hinnom. Now, I believe in the spiritual sense, it is the burning of the Divine Presence which cleanses whatever/whoever can be cleansed and destroys that which cannot.
As far as badchad’s insistence that, if annihilation is true, it makes God & Jesus to be murderous monsters- if God/Jesus are the Source of Eternal Life, then by rejecting Them, you are rejecting Eternal Life. Badchad, you don’t believe in Eternal Life anyway so you’ll be getting the end of your existence that you expect. However, I do believe that you’ll be shown what you could have had, even perhaps given an opportunity to
change your mind. If you choose to keep up your warfare against God & Jesus then, well- Bye.