# If God Made Me, He Knows I Can't Believe in Him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882 "2007-09-20T17:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/301 "2007-09-25T22:51:31Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Fair points. I would say that behind people’s periods of introspection there’s still some external stimulus involved, even if that was long ago and you’re only now thinking about it. But you’re right, you could consider thinking about it to be an internal stimulus with the same effect. I’d say also that it is these stimuli that will affect your judgement as to choosing whether to think about things, so even there you don’t really have a choice to think about it or not. Either way, i’d still say you don’t have any choice in what your beliefs are. [/QUOTE] Well, sure, we might be deterministic. But I thought the point of this thread was to discuss whether we have less “free will” to choose a belief than, say, to choose to turn right or left at an intersection. If you have to play the determinism card, then I’d say that you’re arguing that beliefs are _not_ a special class of decision, since you’re arguing we don’t decide _anything_. (Though I think it’s become more of a semantic argument at that point.) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/302 "2007-09-25T23:02:10Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Well, sure, we might be deterministic. But I thought the point of this thread was to discuss whether we have less “free will” to choose a belief than, say, to choose to turn right or left at an intersection. If you have to play the determinism card, then I’d say that you’re arguing that beliefs are _not_ a special class of decision, since you’re arguing we don’t decide _anything_. (Though I think it’s become more of a semantic argument at that point.) [/QUOTE] My only point really was that we don’t get to choose what we believe. I do think it’s a special class of decision, since we can’t even “overrule” ourselves; if someone said “change your mind, go left instead of right at this intersection, and you’ll get this huge pile of cash”, I could do that. I’d probably be able to change my mind for less than that really, but hey, i’m cheap. 😉 I can’t do the same with my beliefs, though; no matter how big the metaphorical pile of cash is, or how much I might want to take it, I can’t change what I believe like that. I don’t believe in free will, so certainly i’d say overall we don’t really have any control over what we do. But even so i’d say beliefs are still a special case within that. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/303 "2007-09-25T23:12:25Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] My only point really was that we don’t get to choose what we believe. I do think it’s a special class of decision, since we can’t even “overrule” ourselves; if someone said “change your mind, go left instead of right at this intersection, and you’ll get this huge pile of cash”, I could do that. I’d probably be able to change my mind for less than that really, but hey, i’m cheap. 😉 I can’t do the same with my beliefs, though; no matter how big the metaphorical pile of cash is, or how much I might want to take it, I can’t change what I believe like that. I don’t believe in free will, so certainly i’d say overall we don’t really have any control over what we do. But even so i’d say beliefs are still a special case within that. [/QUOTE] Alrighty then; I think we can agree. I too think we’re deterministic (since uninfluenced random number generators in the brain would not cause ‘free will’ in any real sense of the term, and since even appealing to spirits merely moves the question of our thinking mechanism, but doesn’t solve it), but within the complex machine of our brain there are _clearly_ a lot of sliders that are varyingly resistant to the effects of the internal state changes we percieve as our consciousnesses. Our beliefs in things (particularly in cases when our beliefs are strongly-held) are not something that can be altered at a whim of the cranial CPU, as some other decisions are. (If you look close, you’ll notice that I actually never said that beliefs can be directly altered by decision; only that you can control and alter the flow of thoughts and information to your brain, which can have the _indirect side effect_ of eroding or building up the foundations of your beliefs. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/304 "2007-09-25T23:15:19Z")
Ah, but that controlling and alteration of the flow is itself the result of a deterministic system. 😉 I suppose the best way I can think to put it is that we only have an illusion of free will; when it comes to belief, we don’t even have the illusion. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/305 "2007-09-25T23:27:42Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] **lekatt** , you are simply repeatring the studies that we already know and thay I am willing to accept in terms of brain flat-line. What I have noted on every occasion, and which you carefully talk around in the hopes that no one will notice, is that the OBE experiences have never been demonstrated to have occurred during the flat-line time period and could just as easily have occurred before the brain went flat-line or after the brain was revived. While several of your doctors would very much like the various events to have occurred during flat-line, not one of them has actually provided a timeline that demonstrated that the OBE occurred during flat-line. The best documented case that has been published is that of Pam Reytnolds by Dr. Sabom and every single event in the OR that she describes was ongoing before her brain was “stopped” or continuing after her brain was “restarted.” Note, again, that I have not made any argument that the events cannot have occurred during flat-line. I am simply pointing out that you always want them to have occurred during flat-line and not one of them is documented to have done so, yet you continue to repeat your unsubstantiated claim as though it has been proven when it has not. [/QUOTE] [http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm](http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm) > [@](#): > > From these studies we **know** that in our prospective study of patients that have been clinically dead (VF on the ECG) no electric activity of the cortex of the brain (flat EEG) must have been possible, but also the abolition of brain stem activity like the loss of the corneareflex, fixed dilated pupils and the loss of the gag reflex is a clinical finding in those patients. \*\*However, patients with an NDE can report a clear consciousness, \*\* in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, and memory from early childhood was possible, as well as perception from a position out and above their “dead” body. Because of the sometimes reported and verifiable out-of -body experiences, like the case of the dentures reported in our study, \*\*we know that the NDE must happen during the period of unconsciousness, \*\* and not in the first or last second of this period. bolding mine > **[Mindful Hack: Part Four: Materialism is running on empty](http://mindfulhack.blogspot.com/2007/09/part-four-materialism-is-running-on.html)** Want more? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/306 "2007-09-25T23:30:39Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] [http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm](http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/vanLommel.htm) bolding mine [/QUOTE] **Unconsciousness is not brain death.** Bolding _mine_. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/307 "2007-09-26T02:06:47Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] **Unconsciousness is not brain death.** Bolding _mine_. [/QUOTE] The man is talking about brain dead, read it again. Below is another. I have many more, every how many it takes. [http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/VLommel.html](http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/VLommel.html) > [@](#): > > 1. CONCLUSION > > According to our concept, grounded on the reported aspects of consciousness experienced during cardiac arrest, we can conclude that our consciousness could be based on fields of information, consisting of waves, and that it originates in the phase-space. During cardiac arrest, the functioning of the brain and of other cells in our body stops because of anoxia. The electromagnetic fields of our neurons and other cells disappear, and the possibility of resonance, the interface between consciousness and physical body, is interrupted. > Such understanding fundamentally changes one’s opinion about death, because of the almost unavoidable conclusion that at the time of physical death consciousness will continue to be experienced in another dimension, in an invisible and immaterial world, the phase-space, in which all past, present and future is enclosed. Research on NDE cannot give us the irrefutable scientific proof of this conclusion, because people with an NDE did not quite die, but they all were very, very close to death, without a functioning brain. > The conclusion that consciousness can be experienced independently of brain function might well induce a huge change in the scientific paradigm in western medicine, and could have practical implications in actual medical and ethical problems such as the care for comatose or dying patients, euthanasia, abortion, and the removal of organs for transplantation from somebody in the dying process with a beating heart in a warm body but a diagnosis of brain death. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/308 "2007-09-26T02:18:25Z")
You do realize that you’re pushing the wrong point? Nobody’s disputing that people can be made entirely unreceptive if you kill them hard enough. What we’re not buying is that anything interesting can be _reliably shown_ to have happened _during_ the brain-dead periods. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/309 "2007-09-26T07:06:09Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] bolding mine Want more? [/QUOTE] Why? So that you can continue to ignore that actual point I have made while continuing to post your misleading anecdotes and interesting but unproven speculations? I will try to lay this out as clearly as I can. Consistent timeline for every reported episode: Pont A: Subject suffers trauma. Point B: Subject enters flat-line state. Point C: Subject exits flat-line state. Point D: Subject regains consciousness. Point E: Subject later describes an OBE. **We do not have any evidence that the OBE occurred between Points B and C and _NOT_ between Points A and B or C and D (or even D and E).**. None. Not one. I accept all the discussion regarding the swiftness of flat-line onset after V-Fib cardiac arrest or any other experience. HOWEVER, there is no documentation of any event that occurred ONLY during the period of flat-line brain experience being reported later. Pam Reynolds’s brain saw was first used before she was flat-lined (and there is no reason to believe that her surgeon had never shown her the saw that was used sometime between the first discussions of her surgery and her later recounting of her experiences. Memory is not so immutable that she could not possibly have been shown the saw and forgot that. The nurse’s tale of the guy who was **in** and out of consciousness during his stay in ER covers a period of over 35 minutes during which other members of the ER staff said that he was conscious, either partially or completely. Every other report follows the same pattern. It is possible that this stuff has happened just the way you want it to have happened, but you keep claiming that all these researchers have seen it and that claim is false. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/310 "2007-09-26T10:06:07Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] We do not have any evidence that the OBE occurred between Points B and C and NOT between Points A and B or C and D (or even D and E).. None. Not one. I accept all the discussion regarding the swiftness of flat-line onset after V-Fib cardiac arrest or any other experience. HOWEVER, there is no documentation of any event that occurred ONLY during the period of flat-line brain experience being reported later. [/QUOTE] Practically speaking how would you get evidence of this? Perhaps the ‘monitoring’ machine (whatever they call it), should flash a random word if it detects a flatline condition. This was the person may see it and report it back? Would that be proof? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/311 "2007-09-26T12:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] You do realize that you’re pushing the wrong point? Nobody’s disputing that people can be made entirely unreceptive if you kill them hard enough. What we’re not buying is that anything interesting can be _reliably shown_ to have happened _during_ the brain-dead periods. [/QUOTE] If you had read the research you would know the experiencers could see, hear, and move around while brain dead outside of their bodies. There are thousands of documented cases. We know this because the experiencers accurately described events and objects seen while brain-dead. The skeptics have lost the war. Sure there will be plenty more battles, but the outcome is settled by research. [http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001\_pages/22.html](http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001_pages/22.html) Below is more evidence of the continuing consciousness after death. If you argue the experiencer was not brain-dead, it doesn’t matter he could still **see** and hear while unconscious. He was in fact out of his body clinically dead. Suggest you do some serious study of near death experiences. All that do come to believe, because it is truth. > [@](#): > > Question: Just wanted to relate a personal experience. I used to be a 100% skeptic, but this happened to me and now I am more open and I am looking for the truth. Please let me know your thoughts. > I am an emergency room nurse. About a year ago we received a patient by ambulance in full cardiorespiratory arrest. No pulse, no effective cardiac rhythm ( refractory ventricular fibrillation ). Patient had been in arrest for at least 15 minutes prior to arival. CPR/ACLS in progress on arrival. > > To make a long story short, we worked him for about 25 minutes without positive response. The physician in charge stated that we would defibrillate one more time and if no response we would stop. One last shock, and his heart converted to a beating rhythm, and continued to impove from there, later being admitted to intensive care. > > **AT NO POINT DURING HIS STAY IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAS HE CONSCIOUS. Most of the time he was technically dead.** > > The next day, one of the ICU nurses called down and told us the patient wanted to see several of the ER staff. He named several of us by name, and described us to the ICU nurses. He said he wanted to see us in person “to make sure he wasn’t going crazy”. > > During a slow time later that night we went upstairs and he called us by name without introductions. He told a story of floating out of his body, just below the ceiling, watching us attempt resuscitation. He said he knew our names from when we called out to each other while working on him. One thing I found especially fascinating was that he said when we defibrillated ( shocked ) him, he would be pulled back into his body for a few seconds, then end up back floating by the ceiling a few seconds after. The last time we defibbed him he was pulled back in and became unconscious. At this point he had a pulse and improved. > > We have talked quite a bit about it here. Some of the staff think maybe he was actually semi-conscious the whole time, his brain remaining oxegenated and at least partly functional due to effective CPR. Something akin to anesthetized surgical patients retaining the sense of hearing and being able to relate the conversations of the operating team after they have been awakened. > > Others in the group here believe it was a NDE. We reason that this would explain the out-of-body viewpoint and the retention of sight and cognitive abilities by the patient even though he was to all intents and purposes dead when we were together in the ER. There is no other way he could have known our names, either, as his family was not allowed in the room during the resuscitation. > > None of us have any experience in this matter and when I stumbled on this newsgroup I thought I’d post and see what you all thought. > > Answer: He learned that this kind of experience has been seen many times in this group. For those who may think the patient was semi-conscious and listening, please note the author states: “He named several of us by name, and described us to the ICU nurses.” This question is quoted from the alt.consciousness.near-death-exp newsgroup with the permission of the author. He was directed to NDE accounts for further reading. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/312 "2007-09-26T13:12:24Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Below is more evidence of the continuing consciousness after death. If you argue the experiencer was not brain-dead, it doesn’t matter he could still **see** and hear while unconscious. He was in fact out of his body clinically dead. Suggest you do some serious study of near death experiences. All that do come to believe, because it is truth. [/QUOTE] Are you seriously offering this anecdote as research? It isn’t. Not even close. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/313 "2007-09-26T13:13:50Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Below is more evidence of the continuing consciousness after death. If you argue the experiencer was not brain-dead, it doesn’t matter he could still **see** and hear while unconscious. He was in fact out of his body clinically dead. Suggest you do some serious study of near death experiences. All that do come to believe, because it is truth. [/QUOTE] Why is “see” bolded there? I don’t myself see anything that he would need vision to know. The patient himself said that he knew the names from when the called out to each other; I don’t see why he couldn’t recognise voices rather than faces. You still don’t understand the term “skeptic”, by the way. Ironic, in that you are yourself the height of skepticism. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/314 "2007-09-26T13:27:59Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] If you had read the research you would know the experiencers could see, hear, and move around while brain dead outside of their bodies. There are thousands of documented cases. We know this because the experiencers accurately described events and objects seen while brain-dead. The skeptics have lost the war. Sure there will be plenty more battles, but the outcome is settled by research. [http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001\_pages/22.html](http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001_pages/22.html) Below is more evidence of the continuing consciousness after death. If you argue the experiencer was not brain-dead, it doesn’t matter he could still **see** and hear while unconscious. He was in fact out of his body clinically dead. Suggest you do some serious study of near death experiences. All that do come to believe, because it is truth. [/QUOTE] This doesn’t prove anything. The fact remains that even though he was not breathing on his own, he was still breathing via assistance. Blood was still pumping via assistance. He was not just laying there dead. I also don’t see any details regarding whether they were even monitoring brain activity at that time. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/315 "2007-09-26T14:38:03Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Below is more evidence of the continuing consciousness after death. If you argue the experiencer was not brain-dead, it doesn’t matter he could still **see** and hear while unconscious. He was in fact out of his body clinically dead. Suggest you do some serious study of near death experiences. All that do come to believe, because it is truth. [/QUOTE] This is the sort of nonsense that you continue to repeat when I have already pointed out the serious flaws in pretending that it is proof. (All bolding mine.) You ignored the first statement: > [@](#): > > Just wanted to relate a personal experience. (_I.e._, an unverified personal anecdote with no controls for incorrect timing, poor memory, or faulty interpretation.) > [@](#): > > I used to be a 100% skeptic, but this happened to me and now I am more open and I am looking for the truth. Please let me know your thoughts. > I am an emergency room nurse. About a year ago we received a patient by ambulance in full cardiorespiratory arrest. No pulse, no effective cardiac rhythm ( refractory ventricular fibrillation ). Patient had been in arrest for at least 15 minutes prior to arival. **CPR/ACLS in progress on arrival**. In other words, the failure of the heart was being offset by external, mechanical means. The blood continued to be pumped to the brain even before the arrival at the ER. Then you bolded this line (and I wonder if you capitalized the phrase that appeals to you) that relates the memory of a single participant: > [@](#): > > AT NO POINT DURING HIS STAY IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM WAS HE CONSCIOUS. Most of the time he was technically dead. while completely ignoring the later comment (including the portion I will bold since your effective filters continue to cause you to fail to read it: > [@](#): > > We have talked quite a bit about it here. \*\*Some of the staff think maybe he was actually semi-conscious the whole time, his brain remaining oxegenated and at least partly functional due to effective CPR. \*\* Something akin to anesthetized surgical patients retaining the sense of hearing and being able to relate the conversations of the operating team after they have been awakened. In other words, in the general pandemonium of an arrest situation in ER, we have at least two conflicting views of what happened from the participants, themselves, yet you continue to insist that the memory of a single nurse that is not verified by any documents showing the actual status of the patient throughout the entire 40 minute event constitutes evidence (that you generally offer as “proof”) that your interpretation is correct.1 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/316 "2007-09-26T14:40:37Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Are you seriously offering this anecdote as research? It isn’t. Not even close. [/QUOTE] It was verified by the nurses and doctors in attendance, as told by the writer. Good study unless you discount the views and testimony of the doctors. Believe what you wish. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/317 "2007-09-26T14:47:31Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Why is “see” bolded there? I don’t myself see anything that he would need vision to know. The patient himself said that he knew the names from when the called out to each other; I don’t see why he couldn’t recognise voices rather than faces. You still don’t understand the term “skeptic”, by the way. Ironic, in that you are yourself the height of skepticism. [/QUOTE] You need to read it again, he gave a detailed description of the doctors before he saw them. Yes, I am a skeptic, a real skeptic, one that doesn’t buy into what science, religion, or any other organization claims until I have personal experience with it. How do I do that, by \*\*reserving judgment \*\* on claims until I have a chance to personally read up on them or investigate them in some other way. I do not think in terms of black or white, and I know that being strange doesn’t mean being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/318 "2007-09-26T14:49:59Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Yes, I am a skeptic, a real skeptic, one that doesn’t buy into what science, religion, or any other organization claims until I have personal experience with it. [/QUOTE] So, you won’t believe we’ve been to the moon until you’ve been there yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/319 "2007-09-26T14:53:15Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] You need to read it again, he gave a detailed description of the doctors before he saw them. [/quote] Could you quote that specific part? I’m having trouble finding it. > [@](#): > > Yes, I am a skeptic, a real skeptic, one that doesn’t buy into what science, religion, or any other organization claims until I have personal experience with it. How do I do that, by \*\*reserving judgment \*\* on claims until I have a chance to personally read up on them or investigate them in some other way. I do not think in terms of black or white, and I know that being strange doesn’t mean being wrong. It’s also worthwhile to note that just as being strange doesn’t mean you’re wrong, just because people call out strangeness it doesn’t mean they’re wrong, either. And of course, you are an organisation of one. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/320 "2007-09-26T15:10:33Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] It was verified by the nurses and doctors in attendance, as told by the writer. Good study unless you discount the views and testimony of the doctors. Believe what you wish. [/QUOTE] This may be part of the problem. You do not appear to understand what a scientific study is. It isn’t a good study. It isn’t a study at all. It’s a story told by some of the participants, after the fact. It has no relation to a scientific study. Where are the hypothesis, the observations, the data, the conclusions? What controls were put in place? Where is the formal write-up? This report may well be convincing to you. But to continue to refer to it as a scientific study is absolutely, demonstrably wrong, and does you and your argument a disservice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882.md?page=17)