# If God Made Me, He Knows I Can't Believe in Him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882 "2007-09-20T17:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/341 "2007-09-27T14:41:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] If you’re only doing the science bit for everyone else, not yourself, wouldn’t it make sense to do it according to _their_ constraints of what science actually is and is not? [/QUOTE] I am presenting research done by scientists, if you don’t think they qualify, tell them so, and don’t bother me with it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/342 "2007-09-27T14:49:25Z")
Just some more non-reality. > [@](#): > > 1. Experiencers of NDEs are profoundly changed in ways that cannot occur from hallucinations and dreams. > > * * * > > No matter what the nature of the NDE, it alters lives. Alcoholics find themselves unable to imbibe. Hardened criminals opt for a life of helping others. Atheists embrace the existence of a deity, while dogmatic members of a particular religion report “feeling welcome in any church or temple or mosque.” > > Nancy Evans Bush, president emeritus of the International Association for Near-Death Studies, says the experience is revelatory. “Most near-death survivors say they don’t think there is a God,” she says. “They know.” In 1975, when Raymond Moody published Life After Life, a book that coined the term “near-death experience” (NDE) to describe this hard-to-define phenomenon. Moody interviewed 150 near-death patients who reported vivid experiences (flashing back to childhood, coming face to face with Christ). He found that those who had undergone NDEs became more altruistic, less materialistic, and more loving. > > Bruce Greyson and Ian Stevenson have been instrumental in gathering evidence indicating that religious backgrounds do not affect who is most likely to have a NDE. They have mapped out the conversion-like effects of NDEs that can sometimes lead to hardship. “They can see the good in all people,” Greyson says of people who have experienced the phenomenon. “They act fairly naive, and they often allow themselves to be opened up to con men who abuse their trust.” They have gathered reports of high divorce rates and problems in the workplace following NDEs. “The values you get from a NDE are not the ones you need to function in everyday life,” says Greyson. Having stared eternity in the face, he observes, those who return often lose their taste for ego-boosting achievement. Not even the diehard skeptics doubt the powerful personal effects of NDEs. “This is a profound emotional experience,” explains Nuland. “People are convinced that they’ve seen heaven.” > > Sources: > > (a) “Near Death Experiences Change Lives,” Barnes-Jewish Hospital > [http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001\_pages/25.html](http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001_pages/25.html) > > (b) “Coping With Life After Near-Death Experience,” New York Times > [http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001\_pages/69.htm](http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001_pages/69.htm) > > (c) “People Are Dramatically Changed By NDEs: P.M.H. Atwater’s NDE Research” > [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence05.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence05.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/343 "2007-09-27T15:11:05Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I am presenting research done by scientists, if you don’t think they qualify, tell them so, and don’t bother me with it. [/QUOTE] I don’t care one way or the other. I was just trying to make a suggestion I thought might be useful. So much for that. See, the problem is this; you’ve said you don’t give a toss about science, but that you’re presenting science arguments for those that think it’s important. That would be fine. Trouble is that what you’re presenting as science, just isn’t - I don’t think anyone fails to appreciate that _you don’t care about it_ - what they’re all getting worked up about is that _the material you’re providing doesn’t meet the specific requirements set out in the questions for which you’re providing it as a response_. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/344 "2007-09-27T16:51:18Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] When truth mattered . . . [/QUOTE] So, you are arguing that you are the sort of new variety of scientist against which you complain? Because not one of your posts on which I have commented have actually expressed the truth that you have claimed for them. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/345 "2007-09-27T23:03:51Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I am presenting research done by scientists, if you don’t think they qualify, tell them so, and don’t bother me with it. [/QUOTE] So what you’re saying is, you’re perfectly happy to present total garbage, caring nothing for its complete worthlessness as science or evidence. That you have no interest whatsoever in presenting accurate or true information. Because that’s what your flimsy dodge of “Don’t tell me it’s crap, tell the researchers” actually says. Anyone who was **actually** interested in the truth would be very concerned about flaws in their arguments and position. (Persons who are only interested in protecting thier own closed set of opinions of course feel no such cumpulsion.) The closest you seem to come to truth nowadays is when you’re speaking sarcastically. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/346 "2007-09-27T23:08:17Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] So what you’re saying is, you’re perfectly happy to present total garbage, caring nothing for its complete worthlessness as science or evidence. That you have no interest whatsoever in presenting accurate or true information. Because that’s what your flimsy dodge of “Don’t tell me it’s crap, tell the researchers” actually says. [/QUOTE] I’ll try that next time I invite friends over for dinner - Instead of serving a meal, I’ll get a bunch of enraged monkeys to fling excrement at them. My excuse will be “take it up with the monkeys - they’re the chefs - not me!” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/347 "2007-09-27T23:10:02Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I’ll try that next time I invite friends over for dinner - Instead of serving a meal, I’ll get a bunch of enraged monkeys to fling excrement at them. My excuse will be “take it up with the monkeys - they’re the chefs - not me!” [/QUOTE] Is that Chef Ramsay’s show, next season? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/348 "2007-09-28T00:13:22Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] So what you’re saying is, you’re perfectly happy to present total garbage, caring nothing for its complete worthlessness as science or evidence. That you have no interest whatsoever in presenting accurate or true information. Because that’s what your flimsy dodge of “Don’t tell me it’s crap, tell the researchers” actually says. Anyone who was **actually** interested in the truth would be very concerned about flaws in their arguments and position. (Persons who are only interested in protecting thier own closed set of opinions of course feel no such cumpulsion.) The closest you seem to come to truth nowadays is when you’re speaking sarcastically. [/QUOTE] Are you saying the studies and research quotes I have posted, the ones done by scientists and doctors, working at various universities are total garbage? If you are, I think it prudent of me to refer you to the authors. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/349 "2007-09-28T00:35:33Z")
I always find it interesting how eager Lekatt is to trumpet the “research” that seems to back his dogma and how ready he is to dismiss any aspect of science that doesn’t. I have no problem believing that people who’ve experienced NDEs often undergo positive psychological changes. That’s great for them. It still doesn’t mean there’s anything supernatural about the experience. It doesn’t prove the existence of a god or an afterlife. After all, as has been pointed out many…many…_many_ times before, **Near** Death Experiences are exactly that. They aren’t **Death** experiences. The people having them are still alive, if only barely. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/350 "2007-09-28T00:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Are you saying the studies and research quotes I have posted, the ones done by scientists and doctors, working at various universities are total garbage? If you are, I think it prudent of me to refer you to the authors. [/QUOTE] I’m saying that you clearly don’t care if they’re garbage or not; you’ll say anything from anybody without regard to its value if you think it’ll support your position. And that nurse is not a scientist or doctor, working at a various university. When you _have_ quoted scientists or doctors, we’ve always been quick to point out why their conclusions don’t support your theories on the afterlife. As often as not, the problem is not their research, but rather **your** presentation of them. For which we see **you** as being the accountable one. It’s cowardly to refer us to the authors. Sometimes they too have some little personal theories and opinions that aren’t really supported by their research (so far), but _they’re_ not the ones posting their material and opinions on this message board. _You_ are. Stop defering blame for your actions onto them. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/351 "2007-09-28T01:25:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] God being all powerful, it is truly not for me to question why some people have the gift of faith and others do not. Therefore, I don’t question it. It is one of life’s mysteries. I don’t think, though, that you can use this mystery as some kind of proof that God does not exist, or that you aren’t equipped for faith yourself. I don’t see it working that way at all. [/QUOTE] So your ability to believe in something for which there is no evidence is a gift presumably bestowed by the being whose existence is unproven. Strange sort of circular reasoning. Are there “gifts” of faith given to people in other unproven areas? For example, I have shown a friend of mine how atrology has been shot down and proven to be bunk over and over and over. He admits astrology has NO scientific basis and has failed every objective test, but he still says that he “feels” it is true. Do you suppose that my friend received the gift of faith in Astrology? Is there a God of Astrology who bestowed that gift on him? Or is the “gift of faith” just a way of saying that you choose to believe in a super-daddy in the sky, and to overlook the lack of evidence, just because this belief comforts you? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/352 "2007-09-28T01:34:13Z")
When you mention the “gift of Faith” and “God” I assume you are talking about the Christian (or Judeo-Christian) God. But if faith that this God exists is a gift, bestowed by this God, then why was a different gift of faith bestowed on people who at various times did or still do believe in Wotan, Odin, Orsiris, Jupiter, Krishna, etc? Over one billion Muslims beleive on faith that there is no God but Allah, that Allah has no son (Jesus was a prophet), that Mohammed was his messenger, etc. Over one billion Christians believ the opposite, also on faith? Why does the gift of faith work so differently? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/353 "2007-09-28T01:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I really appreciate your post, but my reality **contains** science, it is **not** science. Reality is everything, every person, every tree, every rock, mountain, drop of water, blade of grass, reality is what is. You can’t break it down into subjective or objective, right or wrong, black or white, that just isn’t reality, it’s only “accepted” reality which is false by definition. What people think, and believe does matter. They can not be separated into non-reality/reality by science or any other organization. If you are not dealing with all of reality you are not dealing with any of it. Many organizations in the past have tried to decide what people should believe in and what they should not believe in and otherwise attempt to control their lives, they all failed. I can remember when science studied reality and didn’t try to create it. When truth mattered and logic didn’t have to pass artificial doctrinal tests before it could be believed. I don’t live in your world of half-truths artificially manufactured by dogma. [/QUOTE] Well of course reality contains much more than just what we can verify scientifically. I’m sure scientists would agree that there’s a lot of observed and documented phenomenon that they cannot scientifically explain. There’s what we feel sure we know and a whole bunch of stuff we have yet to understand. However, for language and communication to have meaning we have to establish some definitions. To that end we have the things we can verify objectively and pretty much agree on , fire is hot, rocks are hard , water is wet and many other universally accepted details of life. We have accepted standards of what constitutes scientific data and what is just anecdotal information. You and I and everyone else can \*believe \* whatever we like but coming to this forum called Great Debates and having some idea of the guidelines and expectations you should be able to tell the difference between beliefs that are really just strong opinions about NDEs and what would fall under the accepted guidelines of scientific research and evidence. Note that a strong opinion **may** be just as true as any widely accepted scientific principle but the point others keep making to you is that you shouldn’t call it proof by any scientific standard when it is perfectly obvious that it is not. Nobody is claiming that it isn’t true, or at least possibly true. Nobody is telling you not to believe it is true and is reality. {That I’ve seen} They’ve simply pointed out that you haven’t provided any proof but merely anecdotal evidence but you insist on calling it something it is not. I’ve had several experiences I would readily call spiritual and I’ve talked to many others who have had their own. I factor these experiences and stories in when deciding what I believe. I wouldn’t call any of these stories or experiences \*proof \* by objective standards. They are not. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/354 "2007-09-28T02:30:02Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Well of course reality contains much more than just what we can verify scientifically. I’m sure scientists would agree that there’s a lot of observed and documented phenomenon that they cannot scientifically explain. There’s what we feel sure we know and a whole bunch of stuff we have yet to understand. However, for language and communication to have meaning we have to establish some definitions. To that end we have the things we can verify objectively and pretty much agree on , fire is hot, rocks are hard , water is wet and many other universally accepted details of life. We have accepted standards of what constitutes scientific data and what is just anecdotal information. You and I and everyone else can \*believe \* whatever we like but coming to this forum called Great Debates and having some idea of the guidelines and expectations you should be able to tell the difference between beliefs that are really just strong opinions about NDEs and what would fall under the accepted guidelines of scientific research and evidence. Note that a strong opinion **may** be just as true as any widely accepted scientific principle but the point others keep making to you is that you shouldn’t call it proof by any scientific standard when it is perfectly obvious that it is not. Nobody is claiming that it isn’t true, or at least possibly true. Nobody is telling you not to believe it is true and is reality. {That I’ve seen} They’ve simply pointed out that you haven’t provided any proof but merely anecdotal evidence but you insist on calling it something it is not. I’ve had several experiences I would readily call spiritual and I’ve talked to many others who have had their own. I factor these experiences and stories in when deciding what I believe. I wouldn’t call any of these stories or experiences \*proof \* by objective standards. They are not. [/QUOTE] You have basically restated what you said previously, nothing new. You seem to be trying to compare fire is hot, with nde is false. That the beliefs and experiences of ninty percent of the world is false because they don’t fit into the artificial tests of science, while the other ten percent is right because they made up the tests. You said nothing about the absolute authenticity placed on science and why all people should embrace it. Personal experience (anecdotal) is acceptable in this world and in courts of law. All experience is personal, even the experiences of scientists. NDEs are very real and prove themselves with thousands of events. Veridical samples and scientific research if you need that sort of thing to believe what is self-evident to most. I think it is time to quit this thread. Nothing more will come of it, in my opinion is has not be wasted, some will read farther and learn more because of it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/355 "2007-09-28T02:55:01Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] You have basically restated what you said previously, nothing new. You seem to be trying to compare fire is hot, with nde is false. That the beliefs and experiences of ninty percent of the world is false because they don’t fit into the artificial tests of science, while the other ten percent is right because they made up the tests. [/QUOTE] That is absolutely \*\*not \*\*what I am trying to say. It a matter of an accurate widely accepted definition of terminology and it’s proper use. I very clearly said > [@](#): > > Note that a strong opinion may be just as true as any widely accepted scientific principle and from the previous post > [@](#): > > It’s completely inaccurate to refer to the examples you give as proof in any way. They’re not. **That doesn’t mean you’re wrong about them**. I’m sorry the point seemed to evade you. Since you’re moving on I’ll say no more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882.md?page=17)