# If God Made Me, He Knows I Can't Believe in Him **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882 "2007-09-20T17:07:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/101 "2007-09-21T05:08:49Z")
I’m gonna take the easy way out and hide behind Czarcasm on this one. He summed up my feelings a lot more clearly than I would have. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/102 "2007-09-21T05:12:18Z")
To sum up, either accept without question that it is a.o.k. to have blind faith that there are no gods, or admit to hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/103 "2007-09-21T05:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] To _dis_believe in God, I’ve got to come up with some sort of proof that God not only doesn’t exist in this universe, but that he also doesn’t exist in any _other_ universes, or even outside of _any_ universe. [/QUOTE] This wasn’t referring to my discussion of “possible universes”, was it? I mean, I think you’re aware that I’m an atheist, through and through, and that I only mentioned “possible universes” in the context of probability distributions, where it is a natural fit, but I just want to make sure there are no misunderstandings. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/104 "2007-09-21T05:25:02Z")
[QUOTE=Indistinguishable] This wasn’t referring to my discussion of “possible universes”, was it? I mean, I think you’re aware that I’m an atheist, through and through, and that I only mentioned “possible universes” in the context of probability distributions, where it is a natural fit, but I just want to make sure there are no misunderstandings. [/QUOTE] Oh, I fully realized what _you_ meant, but I also realize that religionists misuse the term when trying to excuse why their god can’t be found anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/105 "2007-09-21T05:29:57Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] All souls go to God. God is “Fire”, pure & passionate compassion & fairness Thus, in a way, everyone goes to the Lake of Fire. Those who will embrace God are enveloped in that compassion & fairness. Those who will not embrace God are tormented by it. [/QUOTE] A novel interpretation. Although I’m not formally trained in marketing, had I been around when the Lord was divinely inspiring the composition of the Holy Bible, I might have gently suggested he opt for a term other than “Lake of Fire” to describe this wondrous retirement community He’s created for all of us, and perhaps made it a bit more explicit that the “eternal torment” we can expect to endure there might actually be more pleasant than the description would suggest. To me, this smacks of the Afterlife as a Time-share: Beautiful Fire Lakefront property (with Stygian boat ramp)! Invest now and you’ll be raking it in for all eternity; pass it up, and you’ll spend immeasurable aeons kicking yourself in the ass watching your Christian neighbors doing the backstroke in mountains of gold. Or so the evangelical telemarketers would have you believe. (Ask yourself: can you really afford NOT to believe in something that seems utterly senseless and improbable? Of COURSE you can’t!) It’s the Gospel according to Nelson Muntz, and IMO the nadir of Christian theology. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/106 "2007-09-21T05:39:47Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] I _choose_ to _believe_ that no such God exists." [/QUOTE] How does the choosing follow from anything that went previously? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/107 "2007-09-21T05:45:40Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > God is “Fire”, pure & passionate compassion & fairness … So passionately compassionate and fair that He killed the child of David and Bathsheba because the parents broke a commandment. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/108 "2007-09-21T05:46:02Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] Still, if a belief is borne of passivity—or ignorance—it remains true they are free to change those beliefs. This message board is _full_ of atheists who at one time were believers in God, but were persuaded to reject those beliefs. (and it would seem to a man were all bible scholars) [/QUOTE] Yer kinda missing my whole point here. No one is “free to change” one’s beliefs, and no one has been “persuaded to reject” beliefs, in the sense I think you mean it. People believe or don’t in this or that. What circumstances, information or experience led to the formation or disintegration of any belief is beside the point: the point is that whatever it was, it was not CHOICE. It’s a little like breathing… I can try to stop it, but in the end, I’m going to breathe, (barring suicide, of course). It’s an automatic thing I have no meaningful control over, except for brief moments which are actually illusions. And in case I forgot to clarify it earlier in response to some other posts, I’m not suggesting that beliefs can’t and don’t change, only that the mechanism which brings it about is not choice. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/109 "2007-09-21T05:51:19Z")
By the way, I really wish I COULD believe in God! I am severly ticked off about the whole death thing, to a far greater degree than anyone I have ever known who wasn’t actually facing death. I think that religion is humankind’s response to the disturbing awareness of mortality. I think the best thing about most religions is that they give people some peace about dying. I wish I could embrace that, I genuinely do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/110 "2007-09-21T05:56:23Z")
[QUOTE=Stoid] By the way, I really wish I COULD believe in God! I am severly ticked off about the whole death thing, to a far greater degree than anyone I have ever known who wasn’t actually facing death. I think that religion is humankind’s response to the disturbing awareness of mortality. I think the best thing about most religions is that they give people some peace about dying. I wish I could embrace that, I genuinely do. [/QUOTE] Actually, the idea of a Christian Heaven seems kind of stifling to me. If I get to have blind faith in an afterlife, I think I’d go for that Big Rock Candy Mountain. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/111 "2007-09-21T06:11:24Z")
[QUOTE=Stoid] By the way, I really wish I COULD believe in God! I am severly ticked off about the whole death thing, to a far greater degree than anyone I have ever known who wasn’t actually facing death. I think that religion is humankind’s response to the disturbing awareness of mortality. I think the best thing about most religions is that they give people some peace about dying. I wish I could embrace that, I genuinely do. [/QUOTE] How are we defining God, btw? It could well be that many theists don’t believe in the same kind of God you disbelieve in. Basically, are you incapable of believing there is a guiding Mind behind it all who is deserving of your reverence and trust? Btw, to all the rest, my “God=Fire” idea is, if not official doctrine, a view which has some hold in Eastern Orthodoxy (tho EO neither guarantees nor denies opportunity after death but does deny the mortality of the soul), and is supported in Isaiah, Malachi, Hebrews and Revelation. In fact, a study of the theme of Judging Fire from Genesis to Revelation makes me wonder how any other idea could have emerged. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/112 "2007-09-21T06:14:37Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] So passionately compassionate and fair that He killed the child of David and Bathsheba because the parents broke a commandment. [/QUOTE] Yeah. If that was the end of the story, I’d agree with you. If you insist that no matter what else did or will happen, nothing could excuse that, then that’s where we disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/113 "2007-09-21T07:49:53Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] OK, I’ve played some ping pong and thought a bit, and come to my own internal peace. My ultimate message relevant to the thread is this: Given our reasoning facilities, it is intellectually irresponsible to believe in a god. [/QUOTE] But we’ve already established that it’s impossible to choose what you believe, so what’s a believer to do? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/114 "2007-09-21T08:47:49Z")
[quote=] Isn’t that simply agnosticism in atheist clothing? [/quote] No, it’s “weak atheism”. [Read up](http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/115 "2007-09-21T10:58:11Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] A subjective value that can nonetheless be measured by its objective results. A belief system which allows for ideas to be embraced without evidence is one ripe for manipulation and error, while one which requires reasoned argument and objective evidence is considerably less prone to error. [/quote] There are no objective results. Or rather, we don’t know for certain that there are. Give me an example of a piece of objective evidence. > [@](#): > > I mean logic in the classical sense, as in 2 + 2 = 4 logic. You seem like a smart fellow, I’m sure you’re well aware of the multiple iterations of the problem of evil, which pretty conclusively shows that certain statements about a god are fundamentally illogical. Conclusively? I think you’re being illogical here. There are plenty of example of that kind of logic, though, and i’m not sure why the example I gave wasn’t one of them. How about this; it’s suggested that God puts a higher priority on free will than on everyone being happy. Thus, it is logical to believe that he won’t intervene when someone chooses to do something that will make them (or another) unhappy. Might not agree with the premise, but it’s a conclusion that makes sense. [QUOTE=the raindog] To my atheist brethren (hehe) I say this: The only rational, intelligent, logical, defendable position is, “Having weighed the evidence, it is clear to me that human observation of the natural world via science is, and always will be, unequipped to answer the question of the existence of a supernatural God. I choose to believe that no such God exists.” [/QUOTE] You seem to be assuming that such human observation of the natural world through science is the only way an atheist may answer this question. Thus, if it fails, we logically are left with only belief. I disagree. We can use logic, too, for one. That I don’t believe in God (or other gods) actually stems more from logic than from scientific evidence, as it happens. Your position is flawed. Plus of course you don’t get to choose to believe anything. It’s something pretty much outside free will. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/116 "2007-09-21T11:17:53Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] I think you’re playing semantic games there. Most “believers” _know_ there is a god, regardless of the evidence - or lack of it - that drove them to that “knowledge”. It’s the same thing. (That’s why they’re impossible to argue with.) ETA:Does this apply to Vishnu as well? [/QUOTE] Belivers cannot "Know " there is a God. They can say they know there is, but it is just a belief. They want there to be a invisible being who loves and cares for them so it is desire that promps them to believe,there is no way to Know there is a god. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/117 "2007-09-21T11:37:37Z")
Hi **raindog** , Sorry to intrude on your conversation with **Forumbot** and others, but I have a nagging question about your post #62 and would appreciate any clarification you may be able to offer. > [@the raindog](#): > > **It is impossible** to employ temporal methods to establish atemporal realities. My question is this: If, as you say, it is impossible to employ temporal methods to establish atemporal realities, on what intellectual basis can we presume the existence of these atemporal realities in the first place? Everything we learn about the universe we learn via the consistent application of temporal methods. If atemporal realities are undetectable by conventional means of temporal investigation, then how did the believers find out about them? It seems to me that believers are insisting we accept the existence of atemporal realities purely on their say so. Is this correct? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/118 "2007-09-21T11:43:17Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] OK, trying this again (I’m not sure why)- All souls go to God. God is “Fire”, pure & passionate compassion & fairness Thus, in a way, everyone goes to the Lake of Fire. Those who will embrace God are enveloped in that compassion & fairness. Those who will not embrace God are tormented by it. And if THEN one chooses to be a spiteful bastard who will not be reconciled, then it’s not God’s fault. One can choose to burn- and maybe burn out. [/QUOTE] I thought God knew all things, so he cannot be a just God and blame His created beings when He knew before they were concieved that they would not embrace Him. The maker of a bad product is responsible for the defects not the product. How can you prove(without using the Bible) that All souls go to God or that there is a Lake of fire. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/119 "2007-09-21T12:17:15Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Conclusively? I think you’re being illogical here. [/quote] Not really. If there are no valid responses to the problem of evil other than to change the qualities of god, then the concept of an omniscient or omnipotent god is incoherent. I’ll copy and paste the summation of the most powerful iteration of the logical impossibility of god by my friend Corey, who is finishing up his PhD in Logic. It’s known as the Atheist Argument from Symbolic Incoherence and its principle author is William Rowe. > [@](#): > > The argument from Symbolic Incoherence (Omniscience) assumes one (and only one) premise: > > (1) God is omnscient > > From this premise, and from this premise alone, it argues that God is incoherent. This is the argument (warning Will Robinson, this is as obtuse as it is profound): > > We begin by creating a modified form of the Newcomb Paradox. We propose a contest in which the following conditions are met: > Quote: > > 1. There is a predictor who can predict action with 100% accuracy > 2. There are two boxes, blue and red. > 3. An agent X has two options: take one box (either blue or red) or take both boxes. > 4. The red box always contains $1,000 > 5. If the predictor predicts, with 100% accuracy, that agent X will select one box (and one box alone), it places $1M in the blue box > 6. Otherwise, it places no money in the blue box > 7. The boxes are made of glass (and are transparent) > 8. Selecting a box costs $1 > 9. The predictor makes these arrangements before agent X selects a box > > Game theorists (and economists) will note that (1), (3), (7) and (8) deviate from the Classical Newcomb Paradox initially presented by the late philosopher Robert Nozick. Note further that all agents fall into two categories: they will either select one box or they will select two boxes. > > If the predictor predicts, with 100% accuracy, that agent X will select one box, he will place $1M in the blue box. Seeing this, a rational agent X will grab both boxes (since it gives him an extra $1,000). If the predictor instead predicts, again with 100% accuracy, that agent X will select both boxes, he will place no money in the blue box. Seeing this, a rational agent X will select only the red box (since it saves him a dollar). > > In other words, a perfectly omniscient predictor will generate incoherent (and self-contradictory) predictions in the modified Newcomb’s Paradox - whatever he predicts will be false, and this is a contradiction since he has 100% accuracy. > > A fully omniscient being is a universally omniscient predictor (since prediction is a category of knowledge). A universally omniscient predictor will also be (by definition) an omniscient predictor for the modified Newcomb’s Paradox. But this is incoherent! Therefore, a fully omniscient being is conceptually incoherent. > > Conclusion: Either God is not omniscient or the concept of God is incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882/120 "2007-09-21T12:29:22Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] I thought God knew all things, so he cannot be a just God and blame His created beings when He knew before they were concieved that they would not embrace Him. The maker of a bad product is responsible for the defects not the product. How can you prove(without using the Bible) that All souls go to God or that there is a Lake of fire. Monavis [/QUOTE] My belief in a Creator is not based on the Bible. My belief in the nature & identity of that Creator is. The Bible is clear that God knows all things. It is not so clear about the “Future” being a “thing” that can be known. The Lake of Fire is the Biblical metaphor for the experience of God by those who utterly reject Him. I think it is logical that if there is a God, that all souls return to Him because ultimately there is nowhere else to go, and that for those who will not be reconciled to Him, the experience of His unescapable presence will be intensely unpleasant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-god-made-me-he-knows-i-cant-believe-in-him/419882.md?page=7)