If God Made Me, He Knows I Can't Believe in Him

Great Debates
221

Stoid, I’ve liked your thread even when I’ve felt like I’ve been whacking my head against a wall.

le katt, that second definition would seem to include spirituality., wouldn’t it?

I’m not sure why Christianity (as represented in the life of the Christ – not in the lives of Christians) would not be about unconditional love. I believe that is how I am loved and how I should strive to love. I’m not going to make it in this life, but I’ve come closer than I thought I would with some people. Close enough to imagine what it must be like. Close enough to make me think there’s no hell.

222

[QUOTE=Stoid]

I’m interested in why you feel this way. Can you explain further?

(I happen to think unconditional love is a very worthy goal, and pretty much impossible for anyone outside of maybe The Dalai Lama to acheive. I think it’s a great goal for the person doing the loving, and I have my own very concrete reasons for saying so.)
[/QUOTE]

Well, I probably overstated- first, we have to define love. I am against unconditional affirmation & moral abdication, which is what too much human prattle about unconditional love comes down to.

However, if we operationally define love as seeking the good in & for another person, seeking to do right by that person, treat them fairly, and if they would benefit from it, mercifully- then yes, I can affirm unconditional love as a worthy goal. And I don’t believe it’s inconsistent with punishment, either in this life or the afterlife.

I believe it is possible for us to unconditionally love an irreparable homicidal predatory criminal & execute him. Keep him safe & in reasonable comfort, try to teach him & give him therapy but if he will only use any opportunity
of mercy to indulge his appetite for evil at the expense of others, then it is not
unloving for us to say “we can’t do anything to fix him in this life. Maybe the Maker
can repair His broken creation. So therefore, let’s send him back.”

I believe it is possible for God to unconditionally love a totally debauched and reprobate soul, but also possible for that soul to be so hardened against God that it experiences God’s relentless love as torment- thus, my definition of the Lake of Fire (see Revelation 14 where the Beast’s devotees are tormented in or by the Presence of the Lamb). This is why I also believe it is possible that if a soul will not be reconciled to God, that soul may be mercifully allowed to burn out of existence, which is the teaching of the Old Testament.

Btw- anyone who wonders where I get this Light of God=Lake of Fire stuff.
This Eastern Orthodox view is summarized well here, against the Western view which has spawned the misrepresentations of Divine Justice ranging from the eloquence of Dante’s Inferno to the spewings of Jonathan Edwards and Jack T. Chick.

http://handmaidleah.wordpress.com/the-river-of-fire/

http://handmaidleah.wordpress.com/the-river-of-fire/heaven-hell-according-to-the-bible/

These words from John 3, which may be a quote from Jesus (I think it is),
puts it quite well-

  1. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
  2. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
  3. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

An episode of XENA turned around the climax of RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK in an
interesting way- They were recovering the Ark of the Covenant for the Israelites.
The bad guys opened it & were overcome by the Light. Xena & Gabby survived, not by cowering & hiding from the Light, but by facing it. I fully believe that in the Afterlife, we as we are will face God as God is, and it will be wonderful & terrible for everyone. Saints will experience some agony, sinners will experience some ecstasy, many who were considered saints or sinners will be revealed to be the
opposite, and everyone will get what is fair and beneficial for them.

Yes, I believe the Christian faith holds the greatest degree of religious truth of any earthly faith and that consistent people-loving Christians will get the greatest rewards. But I also hold that many Christ-worshippers will suffer far more than those who in this life do their best for others yet hold to a different faith. In that day, those great souls in every faith who worked for the good of others will gladly
worship Jesus.

223

[QUOTE=Stoid]
Did Lekatt talk about a god he believed in?
[/quote]
Do you honestly think he’s talking about a god he doesn’t believe in?

If they agree on the details but do not present evidence, relying on faith alone, then the answer is probably yes.

Yes, of course I am talking about scientifically acceptable evidence, not hearsay or feelings or assumptions based on either.

224

[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Do you honestly think he’s talking about a god he doesn’t believe in?
[/QUOTE]

I may have completely missed something, and please feel free to point it out to me if I have…but I don’t recall Lekatt talking about God at all, not in connection with the spirtual ideas he’s been referring to.

And I thought you were thoroughly familiar with all this stuff? Because if so, I think you’ve forgotten a lot, cuz almost none of the sources that I learned from were about any kind of god at all. So unless you or someone else can point out big chunks of stuff I missed, I’m thinking you are stil ldoing a whole lot of conclusion jumping in a knee jerk assuming sort of way. But of course I’m prepared to be shown my error in my perception of what’s been discussed.

225

[QUOTE=lekatt]
You are right, but I am talking about spirituality, not religion, big difference. The Christian religion does contest unconditional, but Jesus did not. He lived it.
[/QUOTE]

I’m inclined to disagree. He OK’d beating slaves (Luke 12:47), damns cities that do not accept his teachings (Matthew 11:20), was completely cool with old testament law (Matthew 5:17) and all it entailed, and admonished the pharises for not killing their disobedient children (Mark 7:9).

Unconditonal? Sure, unless you were a nonbeliever. Then your ass is getting taken down by the The Sword.

226

[QUOTE=Zoe]
Stoid, I’ve liked your thread even when I’ve felt like I’ve been whacking my head against a wall.

le katt, that second definition would seem to include spirituality., wouldn’t it?

I’m not sure why Christianity (as represented in the life of the Christ – not in the lives of Christians) would not be about unconditional love. I believe that is how I am loved and how I should strive to love. I’m not going to make it in this life, but I’ve come closer than I thought I would with some people. Close enough to imagine what it must be like. Close enough to make me think there’s no hell.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think the second definition is so broad as to include all of mankind’s organizations thereby making the definition unnecessary.

I really like the rest of your post, right on target.

227

[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Do you honestly think he’s talking about a god he doesn’t believe in?

If they agree on the details but do not present evidence, relying on faith alone, then the answer is probably yes.

Yes, of course I am talking about scientifically acceptable evidence, not hearsay or feelings or assumptions based on either.
[/QUOTE]

You are elevating science to the position of judge and jury as to what is acceptable in this world. In reality it is the people who decide what is acceptable, not science. Science will not dictate to the world what it will believe anymore than other dictators who tried and failed to control the world in the past.

228

[QUOTE=ForumBot]
I’m inclined to disagree. He OK’d beating slaves (Luke 12:47), damns cities that do not accept his teachings (Matthew 11:20), was completely cool with old testament law (Matthew 5:17) and all it entailed, and admonished the pharises for not killing their disobedient children (Mark 7:9).

Unconditonal? Sure, unless you were a nonbeliever. Then your ass is getting taken down by the The Sword.
[/QUOTE]

People can interpret the Bible verses in any manner that suits them, also we know that Jesus preached for about three years saying a great deal more than is quoted in the Bible if it is quoted correctly. But there is enough of Jesus’ teachings in the Bible to understand the main thrust of his meaning which is “love one another.” “Love your enemies, love them that despitefully use you,” etc. This is beyond any doubt unconditional love. Underscored at the end by His refusal to allow His followers to hurt the people that were about to murder him.

229

[QUOTE=Stoid]
I may have completely missed something, and please feel free to point it out to me if I have…but I don’t recall Lekatt talking about God at all, not in connection with the spirtual ideas he’s been referring to.

And I thought you were thoroughly familiar with all this stuff? Because if so, I think you’ve forgotten a lot, cuz almost none of the sources that I learned from were about any kind of god at all. So unless you or someone else can point out big chunks of stuff I missed, I’m thinking you are stil ldoing a whole lot of conclusion jumping in a knee jerk assuming sort of way. But of course I’m prepared to be shown my error in my perception of what’s been discussed.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t talk a lot about God, but I know that God exists. He/it/she is the sum total of all things, sometimes called the Oneness. When one has a spiritual experience it usually includes the feeling/knowledge/understanding that you are part of the Oneness and the Oneness is a part of you.

230

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I don’t talk a lot about God, but I know that God exists.
[/QUOTE]
I think your definition of “a lot” may be different from mine.

Speaking of definitions, though, could you define “spirituality” for me?

231

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I don’t talk a lot about God, but I know that God exists. He/it/she is the sum total of all things, sometimes called the Oneness. When one has a spiritual experience it usually includes the feeling/knowledge/understanding that you are part of the Oneness and the Oneness is a part of you.
[/QUOTE]

That’s not god. You’re not allowed to make up your own definitions and expect people to be able to communicate with you on the subject. You might as well be speaking swahili.

232

[QUOTE=lekatt]
You are right, but I am talking about spirituality, not religion, big difference. The Christian religion does contest unconditional, but Jesus did not. He lived it.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve yet to hear an acceptable definition of “spirituality” that isn’t so closely aligned to “religion” and the supernatural as to be indistinguisable. But I welcome you to try.

233

[QUOTE=Stoid]
Are you saying that having read the explanation I gave for what he likely meant?

Well, see, this is a big difference in our thinking. How do you know whether there is any reality to it or not? You don’t believe there is, which I completely relate to, but you assert this in a way that suggests you see it as an unassailable truth.

I wish I could find the exact quote that really summed up my feelings on the subject of spirit and creation and the supernatural in general, but I can come pretty close from memory:

It is the height of arrogance to assume that the limits of our perception constitute the limits [COLOR=DarkRed]of what there is to be perceived.
[/COLOR]

And that is really the guiding thought for me when I consider these matters. I’m quite certain that there’s more to be known and understood, and I know that I don’t know what it is. So the best I can do is take in information and ideas, consider my own experience (which has some interesting moments in it that have prompted me to consider these matters more closely), and arrive at what seems true to me.

[/QUOTE]

I never said it was impossible. I just said there is no reason to think there is based on our collective information at this point. I never said that we are at the limits of what we can preceive. I said that our current perception of the world does not reveal evidence of an invisible being that gives a fuck about life on Earth. To invest in it as if it has been revealed to us at this point is silly. To hope that there’s something (maybe even a “good” something…certainly not the “something” that is evil and scary and rules so many lives) beyond what we see and know is fine. But to pretend it actually exists when we don’t know? Why!!?? Why not just let life happen? Why must some people add a layer of smoke and mirrors and behave as if they know it is something more than that?

234

[QUOTE=lekatt]
People can interpret the Bible verses in any manner that suits them, also we know that Jesus preached for about three years saying a great deal more than is quoted in the Bible if it is quoted correctly.
[/quote]

I’m not really sure how one incorrectly quotes the bible. I gave you the verses, you can check them out for yourself.

You can preach tolerance for your enemies until you’re blue in the face, and that’s a great thing to preach, but when you say “kill disobedient children”, you’re an asshole. Me, I could never kill a child, especially not one that I loved.

235

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I think your definition of “a lot” may be different from mine.

Speaking of definitions, though, could you define “spirituality” for me?
[/QUOTE]

Mankind is spiritual, spirituality is contacting, learning, understanding, gaining knowledge about yourself, who you are and why you are here.

236

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
That’s not god. You’re not allowed to make up your own definitions and expect people to be able to communicate with you on the subject. You might as well be speaking swahili.
[/QUOTE]

Nothing is made up, it is experienced, not only by me, but by millions of other people.

237

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I’ve yet to hear an acceptable definition of “spirituality” that isn’t so closely aligned to “religion” and the supernatural as to be indistinguisable. But I welcome you to try.
[/QUOTE]

When you are young, a rock is a rock, as you get older and go to school, rocks become discernible into many kinds and catagories. No real schools for defining religions, but as you grow in spirit, discernment is evident. Spiritual experiences will quickly show you the difference between religion and spirituality.

238

Well, all you skeptics - here’s the straight dope…! I’d be a little worried (just a little) that God might be right.

But, actually, now that i think about it, hell isn’t THAT bad compared to the domestic culture developing in the reaches of this fine country of ours.

So, take your time - explore the facts - and vote your conscience.

After all, it’s hard to believe in ANYTHING these days…

239

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I never said it was impossible. I just said there is no reason to think there is based on our collective information at this point. I never said that we are at the limits of what we can preceive. I said that our current perception of the world does not reveal evidence of an invisible being that gives a fuck about life on Earth. To invest in it as if it has been revealed to us at this point is silly. To hope that there’s something (maybe even a “good” something…certainly not the “something” that is evil and scary and rules so many lives) beyond what we see and know is fine. But to pretend it actually exists when we don’t know? Why!!?? Why not just let life happen? Why must some people add a layer of smoke and mirrors and behave as if they know it is something more than that?
[/QUOTE]

Can’t speak for others, but I know God exists, and that we are spiritual, eternal beings. To know has vastly improved my life. Really wish there was a way to pass on “knowing.”

240

[QUOTE=ForumBot]
I’m not really sure how one incorrectly quotes the bible. I gave you the verses, you can check them out for yourself.

You can preach tolerance for your enemies until you’re blue in the face, and that’s a great thing to preach, but when you say “kill disobedient children”, you’re an asshole. Me, I could never kill a child, especially not one that I loved.
[/QUOTE]

I did check them out. The first one Jesus was saying what happened, not that He approved of it, or would do it.

The second one?