# If hate speech isn’t illegal, why was this NY couple arrested? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187 "2022-01-21T19:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/1 "2022-01-21T19:11:49Z")
> **[Couple arrested after launching hateful rant against family, including...](https://apple.news/AtxSo3s-6TaqMuq-6SZwIkQ)** > > Justin Likerman, 37, and Kristin Digesaro, 38, surrendered to police Wednesday. It appears the “endangerment of a child” is a kind of stretch…but i could see it being squeezed in. The behavior of the couple is deplorable, but I’m having difficulty finding it criminal. Maybe the throwing of the beer at the family would push it across the line for me. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/2 "2022-01-21T19:16:38Z")
Relevant statute: > § 240.30 Aggravated harassment in the second degree. > A person is guilty of aggravated harassment in the second degree when, > with intent to harass, annoy, threaten or alarm another person, he or > she: > ~~ > 3. Strikes, shoves, kicks, or otherwise subjects another person to > physical contact, **or attempts or threatens to do the same because of a > belief or perception regarding such person’s race, color, national > origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability > or sexual orientation, regardless of whether the belief or perception is > correct**; or So I would say yelling racist things at them and then throwing a beer can fits. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/3 "2022-01-21T19:22:49Z")
Yeah, that’s what I found, too. Here’s the “Endangering the welfare of a child” part: > NY PL 260.10(1) > > You are guilty of Endangering the Welfare of a Child pursuant to New York Penal Law 260.10(1) if you act knowingly in such a way that is likely to cause an injury to the mental state, person of (physical) or moral welfare of a child. This child must be sixteen years old or younger. That seems very broad. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/4 "2022-01-21T19:36:24Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The behavior of the couple is deplorable, but I’m having difficulty finding it criminal. The _content_ of the rant appears only to be an enhancement to the charge. And set aside throwing beer. Do you really think people should have the right to harrass you with an extended drunken rant at you on public transportation with impunity? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/5 "2022-01-21T19:59:48Z")
He was a used car salesman! 😆 (emphasis: _was_) Suddenly the hatefulness makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/6 "2022-01-21T20:41:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Do you really think people should have the right to harrass you with an extended drunken rant at you on public transportation with impunity? > **[The Legalities Of Hate Speech](https://thelawdictionary.org/article/the-legalities-of-hate-speech/)** > > Often discussed on a variety of platforms, hate speech and the legalities associated with it can be a hotly debated topic. Hate speech is loosely defined “In the United States, there are no laws against hate speech. Due to rights protected by the U.S. Constitution’s [First Amendment](https://thelawdictionary.org/first-amendment-2/), a person can say just about anything he or she wants to another person or group. By itself, such speech is allowed to take place without penalty under the law.” ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/7 "2022-01-21T21:04:56Z")
It was clearly more than hate speech, it was hate speech delivered aggressively and in a threatening manner. Anyway, it was enough for an arrest. The court procedures will determine whether it rises to the definition in the statute, and what, if any (further) penalties they will suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/8 "2022-01-21T21:26:32Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > In the United States, there are no laws against hate speech. So what? The principal problem here is harrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/9 "2022-01-21T23:20:37Z")
Legally, assault sometimes doesn’t even need to involve physical contact; just the threat of it. I’m pretty sure that kind of assault isn’t protected by the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/10 "2022-01-21T23:31:59Z")
That has nothing to do with this. Again, “Do you really think people should have the right to harrass you with an extended drunken rant at you on public transportation with impunity?” The man threatened physical violence at a couple and a child while in an enclosed place they couldn’t get away from. How the fuck is their behavior _not_ criminal!? And, shocker, of course they aren’t masked. They should be fined for that too. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/11 "2022-01-21T23:35:53Z")
He could have yelled “You fucking asshole, I hate you you pussy ass weirdo! (etc.etc).” No hate speech involved, but the same crime is committed. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/12 "2022-01-22T03:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > “Justin Likerman, 37, of Ronkonkoma, Long Island, and Kristin Digesaro, 38, of Huntington, Long Island…” I have lived in both Ronkonkoma and Huntington. The Long Island Railroad out there is so deplorable and overpriced, the riders can be excused for taking it out on innocent minorities. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/13 "2022-01-22T05:57:03Z")
I’m as free speech as anybody I know but I draw the line at throwing stuff at a family. That seems like legitimately threatening behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/14 "2022-01-22T13:58:14Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Legally, assault sometimes doesn’t even need to involve physical contact; just the threat of it. I’m pretty sure that kind of assault isn’t protected by the First Amendment. It’s my understanding that assault is the _threat_ of physical harm (or not even harm, just physical contact). The actual physical part is battery. I may be wrong on this, willing to be corrected. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/15 "2022-01-22T14:13:36Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > It’s my understanding that assault is the _threat_ of physical harm (or not even harm, just physical contact). > > The actual physical part is battery. > > I may be wrong on this, willing to be corrected. No, you are correct - these are the traditional terms. But, some jurisdictions don’t follow that model, so an assault charge is not always a mere threat. As to the OP, I’d say the difference is the threat of imminent violence. The defendants didn’t just yell at these people, they put them in fear of being attacked. If a person gets on a train, and they here another passenger mumble something offensive about them (“fucking Caucasians. Always putting Mayo on bread.”), that’s not a crime (or is at least defensible as protected speech). But if that mumbler adds in threatening speech (“Every whitey should die. Where’s my screwdriver?”), it’s past protected speech and in the realm of crIminal threats. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/16 "2022-01-22T16:58:10Z")
Right, plain and simple verbal assault, threats or harassment are illegal in themselves. Plus there is also the offense of disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct. That as a practical reality all that is not enforced Zero-Tolerance style on every single incident of A$$holes On A Train does not mean the authorities will give everyone a pass. ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/17 "2022-01-24T04:46:43Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > And, shocker, of course they aren’t masked. They should be fined for that too. I don’t have an answer to the original question but unfortunately I’m not surprised. My husband rides the Long Island Railroad line to get to work Monday to Friday and says there’s a surge of non-masking riders lately. He says they smirk aggressively, as if they’re daring other passengers to say something. And I’ve ridden the same train where the incident happened many times coming home from concerts, plays, sports events etc. While most of the riders are all right, there are too many who are rowdy, drunk, entitled and rude. After riding the train with them, I’ve seen that there’s something about attending a game that seems to bring out the worst in some people. The couple who were arrested had probably just been to a game, I’ve seen people on the train looking just like them going to and from sports events in Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![Steven\_Maven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steven_maven/32/3272_2.png) [@Steven\_Maven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steven_Maven)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/18 "2022-01-24T05:34:34Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Due to rights protected by the U.S. Constitution’s [First Amendment](https://thelawdictionary.org/first-amendment-2/), a person can say just about anything he or she wants to another person or group. This is a common misunderstanding, due to schools no longer teaching Civics. The First Amendment means that The Government cannot make it illegal to criticize the government, and nothing else. It does not apply to conversations between private individuals. FURTHERMORE: It does not permit you to falsely yell “fire” in a crowded theater. It does not permit slander or libel. It does not permit advertising with false claims about the product or false attacks on a competitor. It does not permit incitement to riot. I could go on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/19 "2022-01-24T15:07:10Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > He was a used car salesman! 😆 > > (emphasis: _was_ ) > > Suddenly the hatefulness makes perfect sense. Note that the couple were fired from the dealership _because_ of their behavior on the train, not before it. From the OP’s article: > Likerman and Digesaro were also both axed from their jobs at the Empire Toyota car dealership in Huntington, Long Island, on Jan. 13 after video of their rant circulated on social media and prompted an internal investigation, dealership general manager Keith Drago confirmed to NBC News. Having said that, it would indeed be poetic if the harassed couple were offered jobs by that same dealership. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187/20 "2022-01-24T17:44:29Z")
> [@Steven\_Maven](#): > > It does not apply to conversations between private individuals. So basically the Pit is not protected speech? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hate-speech-isn-t-illegal-why-was-this-ny-couple-arrested/958187.md?page=2)