# IF Hillary Clinton got the Dem nomination in '08, could she win the election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244 "2006-05-10T17:02:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/41 "2006-05-10T23:54:20Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Her “history” as an imperious and arrogant “advisor” who was basically crafting policy as an unelected shadow President. Her history as a person who would forgive her philandering husband anything, so long as it did not disturb her access to power. Okay, I’ll bite – do you have any cites for these claims that _don’t_ come from the likes of _The New Republic?_ ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/42 "2006-05-10T23:55:33Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Her “history” as an imperious and arrogant “advisor” who was basically crafting policy as an unelected shadow President. Her history as a person who would forgive her philandering husband anything, so long as it did not disturb her access to power. I rest my case. _This_ is what Hillary has to contend with on the right. It will never change. To convince the mushy middle, she has to move toward that right, thus reinforcing the power-hungry-and-mendacious-psycho-bitch meme in an effort to quell it, alienating the Dem. base all the while. Do nothing to persuade and gain nothing, which isn’t enough. Do something politically necessary and self-destruct. It’s a total catch-22. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/43 "2006-05-11T00:12:50Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Until Democrats stop voting in primaries for someone they would like to see as President and start voting for someone who can be elected they deserve to lose. Kerry beat Dean for the nomination in 2004 based on a perception he was more electable. Let’s not repeat that mistake. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/44 "2006-05-11T00:15:59Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Her “history” as an imperious and arrogant “advisor” who was basically crafting policy as an unelected shadow President. :rolleyes: **Every** president has those, and is entitled to them. The president’s chief advisor is usually not the first lady, but there is precedent even for that. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith\_Bolling\_Wilson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Bolling_Wilson) ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/45 "2006-05-11T00:28:09Z")
First off, I’d like to say that I have some serious questions about HRC’s effectiveness as a Senator. Granted, much of this is through looking at her service through the lens of local issues, but I think that’s a perfectly valid way of evaluating **any** holder of public office. She made a large number of promises for the good of upstate NY, which for a number of reasons she’s not been able to fulfill. She’s substantially more successful with issues focusing on downstate, but that’s always been where the center of her base in the state had been. I’m not saying she’s a poor representative, but she’s not as effective a one as many people seem to percieve. Having said all that, and even though I believe she’s played fast and loose with ethical issues, too, I’d vote for her in a heartbeat over another Bush. And I thought I’d never, ever say something like that. I just don’t know how much my opinion matches the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/46 "2006-05-11T00:29:43Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > .She made a large number of promises for the good of upstate NY, which for a number of reasons she’s not been able to fulfill. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/47 "2006-05-11T00:38:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Such as? The biggest one I can think of is promising to provide for an increase in jobs in the upstate area of the state. I believe the numbers she’d promised back in 2000 had been 200,000. Since then jobs in that area of the state have gone down. Again - I’m not saying it’s all her fault, nor that she’d avoiding trying to bring growth to this area of the state, but it was a campaign pledge/promise, and jobs have gone down. **Exapno Mapcase** makes some excellent arguments about the natural growth and decline of urban/metropolitan areas, that are causing problems for the upstate area. So, I surely don’t believe that it’s her fault that the jobs have left. But if she’s as smart as she claims to be, shouldn’t she know that, and not promise such things? [Cite](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/10/225623.shtml) [Cite](http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/apr04/042004.htm) [Cite](http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/10/225623.shtml) Especially that last cite is important. I’m not sure I disagree with her reasoning for **why** the jobs haven’t materialized, but they were promised, and they aren’t here. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/48 "2006-05-11T00:39:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: **Every** president has those, and is entitled to them. The president’s chief advisor is usually not the first lady, but there is precedent even for that. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith\_Bolling\_Wilson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Bolling_Wilson) Most Presidents do have them, and being mendacious, calculating, threatening enforcers and political sausage makers they are rarely electable. It’d be like Karl Rove running for President. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/49 "2006-05-11T00:42:51Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Most Presidents do have them, and being mendacious, calculating, threatening enforcers and political sausage makers they are rarely electable. It’d be like Karl Rove running for President. But no part of that description applies to HRC. And she has proven she can get elected to something. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/50 "2006-05-11T01:06:58Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Her “history” as an imperious and arrogant “advisor” who was basically crafting policy as an unelected shadow President. Her history as a person who would forgive her philandering husband anything, so long as it did not disturb her access to power. > > Hillary Clinton’s main agenda is power and she will go to remarkable lengths, and suffer almost any humiliation to obtain it and hand onto it. She has done this throughout her domestic and political career. While I can admire her fierce determination in this respect, it (to me) bespeaks an unquenchable lust for power I would find worrisome in any man or woman, much less the potential POTUS. None of this diatribe has any relationship to reality, of course, but I quote it because it perfectly summarizes why HRC can’t win a general election. **Astro’s** post is emblematic of a large segment of the electorate who have for so many years been brainwashed by the right wing media into thinking that she is an evil, cartoon villain who (heaven forbid) “wants power” (I guess no Republican candidate ever wanted power) that they are simply unreachable. Hillary is Satan to these people. She is THE ultimate “liberal.” (Never mind that she’s a moderate…facts have nothing to do with this). I wonder why people like **Astro** are so terrified of Hillary becoming powerful? What are they afraid she’s going to do? Suspend Habeas Corpus? Spy on the public? Arrest people without charges and hold them without trial? Invade other countries on false premises? Declare that the Constitution does not apply to her? I guess it’s better to be on the safe side and vote only for safe, conservative candidates who don’t want power and would never think of abusing it. I also wonder why Hillary’s forgiveness of her husband is seen as a problem by that side of the political spectrum which is the loudest at advocating so-called “Christian” values. Isn’t forgiveness the paramount Christian value? Shouldn’t Hillary be _praised_ for being such a good Christian? Hillary can never be President. Trying to convince some people that she 's anything but an evil, powerful witch bent on world domination is an exercise in futility. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/51 "2006-05-11T03:33:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Kerry beat Dean for the nomination in 2004 based on a perception he was more electable. Let’s not repeat that mistake. I agree that there was a common belief that Kerry was more electable. I agree that this contributed to Kerry’s defeat of Dean in the primaries. I agree that Kerry lost the general election. How does any of that establish that the Dems made a mistake? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/52 "2006-05-11T04:21:44Z")
> [@astro](#): > > As disgusted as I am with Bush currently, If the Democrats completely lose their minds and nominate Hillary Clinton then they get whatever they deserve. … If that’s where the Dem’s want to go then they really are full fledged numb skulls who don’t deserve a Democratic President. > > Beyond this she will drain money and resources from Democratic contributors that could go to electable (male or female) candidates. Hurm. Replace “Bush” with “Clinton” & “Hillary Clinton” with “George Bush’s idiot son” & you have a pretty good analogue of how I felt in 2000. In any case, I think it’s time to send the Bushes, the Rodham-Clintons, & the Kennedys for that matter, home to wherever, & get some new blood in. But this is America, where we have no royal family, so we make dynasties of our politicians. :Sigh.: ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/53 "2006-05-11T10:16:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s certainly refreshing to hear a Democrat supporting a Republican Senator, but so far as I’m aware, John Warner is not planning on a run for the White House. > > How do you feel about former Virginia governor Mark Warner, by the way? > > 🙂 D’oh! Of course, I meant Mark Warner. I grew up in VA so John Warner’s name is pretty much imprinted on my DNA. BTW, as a Dem, I have to say I think John Warner is a pretty good senator. I just hope the Democrats are able to pick a candidate that is able to take advantage of the pendulum swing in US politics and pull some of the undecideds into the fold, rather than a divisive candidate like HRC. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/54 "2006-05-11T13:32:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Kerry beat Dean for the nomination in 2004 based on a perception he was more electable. Let’s not repeat that mistake. I guess maybe that’s true and maybe that shows the politicial weakness of the primary system. I don’t want to hi-jack the thread too far but I don’t think the average voter has any feel for who amone the possible candidates is electable and who isn’t. I must say that I’m not at all impressed with the presidents we have had since the primary elections, rather than professional political party leaders, became the factor that decided on the candidates. Dean probably lost a lot of support with that excited, arm waving speech. It probably made a lot of people think, “Who in the world would vote for such a nut?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/55 "2006-05-11T16:01:14Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Dean probably lost a lot of support with that excited, arm waving speech. It probably made a lot of people think, “Who in the world would vote for such a nut?” He probably did, but I think the idea that that moment marked his downfall is largely a media creation. Dean was on the skids going into Iowa, but he was still the media darling. It’s almost like his “I Have a Scream” speech was an excuse for the media to use for not paying attention earlier. Personally, I didn’t think the scream was any big deal. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/56 "2006-05-11T19:46:51Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Personally, I didn’t think the scream was any big deal. Damn that liberal media! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/57 "2006-05-11T19:54:21Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Damn that liberal media! Ah, you don’t know how it works. The “liberal media” suddenly realized that Dean wasn’t electable, so they had to kill his campaign. They had a big meeting about it and everythihng. I think Micheal Moore was the chariman, and Dan Rather took notes. You need to brush up on your conspiracy theory tactics! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/58 "2006-05-11T20:04:35Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I guess maybe that’s true and maybe that shows the politicial weakness of the primary system. I don’t want to hi-jack the thread too far but I don’t think the average voter has any feel for who amone the possible candidates is electable and who isn’t. I must say that I’m not at all impressed with the presidents we have had since the primary elections, rather than professional political party leaders, became the factor that decided on the candidates. Not a hi-jack. It’s exactly what makes me fear that money from Rupert Murdoch and his friends could let the Republicans nominate the next Democrat. The monster no longer has a head. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/59 "2006-05-11T20:19:22Z")
Whoops - I thought we were in the thread I started. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244/60 "2006-05-11T20:25:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Hillary can never be President. Trying to convince some people that she 's anything but an evil, powerful witch bent on world domination is an exercise in futility. Well, as someone who voted for Gore and Kerry I find your “right wing brainwashing” assertion amusing. I have watched Hillary Clinton’s career for almost 13 years now, and my notion of her as “arrogant” and “imperious” did not come from an RNC memo or Karl Rove’s diabolical machinations, but in watching how she handled herself in the Clinton Whitehouse for 8 years. To be frank, after the Clinton era ended I thought both she and Bill needed to to wander off into the sunset for a while. My objection to her is less policy oriented and more to do with form. That she would use the Whitehouse as a bully trampoline to bounce into the NY race for the US Senate, and elbow aside the local NY Democratic Senate candidates to get elected on her star power was (again IMO) an unseemly and grasping, almost desperate race for power as her influence was fading. The US has had enough of the Clintons and the Bushes in the Presidency. She has no chance of being elected, she will only drain resouces from viable candidates. If the democrats want a shot at the Presidency they had best wake up from their pipe dream and draft an electable contender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-hillary-clinton-got-the-dem-nomination-in-08-could-she-win-the-election/356244.md?page=4)