# If I didn't believe in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962 "2012-08-19T14:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomcar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/61 "2012-08-19T17:22:00Z")
All ideas can be found in religion and atheism. I can believe in racism, misogynism, abortion and capitalism and find religious reasons or atheistic reason to support my beliefs. I can believe in healing, free love, communism, anti-abortion and whatever else and find support either way. All the major scriptures/atheistic writings could support any of these things. There are people who worship Jesus who don’t believe in universal healthcare for chrissakes! Anything is possible. So Mr Atheist, don’t be discouraged when you are painted with a broad stroke as a nihilist. And Mr Christian (and Sister Christian) don’t get upset when you are seen as a Crusades war monger. All these things are independent of your belief systems. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/62 "2012-08-19T17:22:43Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > ``` > My biggest point to this thread is that I see a lot of obvious aggressive attacks on Christians and anyone else who believes in God > > ``` And yet you created a thread to say that atheists would commit genocide if they were in charge. I’m glad you don’t condone aggressive attacks on people based on their beliefs. ETA: I’m having a hard time finding it, but can someone please help me find the section of the atheist handbook that talks about killing off all of humanity except for one family? I know I read it someplace but I can’t put my finger on it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/63 "2012-08-19T17:26:39Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Hitler may have proffessed to being a Christian but I doubt if he was anything but a sociopath. As said he was raised Christian; he was supported internationally by Christian organizations and exterminated traditional enemies of Christians. > [@badger5149](#): > > I see no reason why a belief in God should have any effect on research, physics or anything else. A belief in gods is about the denial of facts and logic; of course it tends to have an effect, a negative one. As history shows. > [@tomcar](#): > > All these things are independent of your belief systems. Nonsense. Belief systems affect how you make decisions, and in many cases call for specific acts. If your belief system demands that you, say, kill unbelievers and you do, that’s not just coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![tomcar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/64 "2012-08-19T17:31:03Z")
Bad wording: They are independent of whether you believe in God or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/65 "2012-08-19T18:28:01Z")
Somebody let me know then the OP gets around to asking questions about how atheists behave, rather than just assuming he already knows. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/66 "2012-08-19T18:35:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Somebody let me know then the OP gets around to asking questions about how atheists behave, rather than just assuming he already knows. Ok, tell me how they behave, and then tell me why I should believe you based on all the animosity demonstrated against believers. My personnal friends who are athiests don’t seem to have ill feelings toward believers so I don’t include them in this question. ---
**Author:** ![greenslime1951](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9bcb4/32.png) [@greenslime1951](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenslime1951)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/67 "2012-08-19T18:36:38Z")
The probability of such injustices being perpetrated in the name of a religion/theology is approximate one billion times greater than them being perpetrated in the name of an atheist philosophy. Atheists, unlike deists, aren’t interested in violently converting others to their point of view. They just want to be left alone by religious institutions, and advocate that those institutions leave everyone else alone as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/68 "2012-08-19T18:37:16Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Ok, tell me how they behave, and then tell me why I should believe you based on all the animosity demonstrated against believers. My personnal friends who are athiests don’t seem to have ill feelings toward believers so I don’t include them in this question. Allow me to answer your question with another; Why are you assuming that your friends are atypical atheists? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/69 "2012-08-19T18:46:35Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Ok, tell me how they behave, and then tell me why I should believe you based on all the animosity demonstrated against believers. My personnal friends who are athiests don’t seem to have ill feelings toward believers so I don’t include them in this question. We pretty much act like everybody else except without the religion part. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/70 "2012-08-19T18:48:31Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Ok, tell me how they behave You know, like people. \*Astonishingly \*like people, in fact. It’s a wondrous feat of mimicry. A man could easily get fooled into believing they’re real people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/71 "2012-08-19T18:50:01Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Ok, tell me how they behave, and then tell me why I should believe you based on all the animosity demonstrated against believers. Well, you’re going to have to decide whether or not to take my word for it, I guess. I’ll cheerfully admit to some animosity toward believers, but I’ve never opposed the free exercise of their religion, just stood against any attempt to write the tenets of their religions into civil law. > [@](#): > > My personnal friends who are athiests don’t seem to have ill feelings toward believers so I don’t include them in this question. I don’t know your personal friends, so I venture no opinion on they treat you. I find it telling, though, that even though you seem okay with them as individuals, you seem to have odd ideas about how they behave in groups, or how you’d behave if you joined them. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/72 "2012-08-19T18:54:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t know your personal friends, so I venture no opinion on they treat you. I find it telling, though, that even though you seem okay with them as individuals, you seem to have odd ideas about how they behave in groups, or how you’d behave if you joined them. It’s kind of funny really, imagine how insulted he’d be if someone told him “I bet if you didn’t believe in God you’d commit genocide”. Yet here is is cheerfully admitting that without religion he’d be a sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/73 "2012-08-19T19:36:51Z")
I don’t know your personal friends, so I venture no opinion on they treat you. I find it telling, though, that even though you seem okay with them as individuals, you seem to have odd ideas about how they behave in groups, or how you’d behave if you joined them. [/QUOTE] ``` I will try and explain my logic to this post. I don't know you and you don't know me so don't take it personnal. Over the past 30 or 40 years I have seen a wider acceptance of athieism. Thats fine. As it became more widely accepted the animosity toward bellievers seems to have gained momentum as well. So I am seeing a snow ball efect and wondering just how far it will go. Pure intellectual logic might very well dictate decisions that a person of faith could not justify. I may be wrong here but my logic tells me that if I only have to justify behavior to a higher power who would an athiest justify his behavior to. We all know how individuals tend to change when power becomes more absolute. The reality of athiests gaining more control over more countries is very real and has many of us concerned, we just don't understand what could guide the decision making process. ``` ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/74 "2012-08-19T19:43:14Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > I may be wrong here but my logic tells me that if I only have to justify behavior to a higher power who would an athiest justify his behavior to. Why do you have to justify your behavior to a higher power? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/75 "2012-08-19T19:57:12Z")
God as a higher power to base morals on? I wouldn’t trust him to babysit my kid. The last time he was put in charge of a couple young innocents, he put an unsecured loaded weapon in the middle of the room, said “Don’t touch that because it will make you be just like a grown-up!”, then left the room for a couple of hours. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/76 "2012-08-19T19:57:41Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > As it became more widely accepted the animosity toward bellievers seems to have gained momentum as well. So I am seeing a snow ball efect and wondering just how far it will go. Let me elucidate here for you, break it down like an IKEA chair: You might be aware of this already, but crime in America, particularly violent crime, is decreasing across the board and has been steadily decreasing over the past 10-20 years or so. Yet everyfuckingbody will tell you the same thing: crime, crime everywhere ! The streets aren’t safe like they used to be ! Say thanks to 24/7 media, bringing the latest drop of blood from Bumfuck, South Nowhere right to your doorstep in colourvision. Same thing about “atheist animosity against believers”. Are there vocal atheists out there ? Sure. Are there downright assholey atheists out there ? Yup. Is there more and more of them ? Prove it. Show it to me. Numbers, graphs, histograms, Venn diagrams, I ain’t particular. Because until you have, I’ll swear to you: it’s not that there are more of them. It’s that you hear them more. It’s that they’re \*shown \*to you more. Because it’ll piss you off, and outrage sells. OTOH, “atheist family works, commutes, keeps to themselves, don’t bother anyone” ? Never gonna sell bathing salts and boner pills with that lead story. Have you, _personally_, ever been the victim of “atheist animosity” ? > [@](#): > > I may be wrong here but my logic tells me that if I only have to justify behavior to a higher power who would an athiest justify his behavior to. Himself. And that’s a harsher judge than any god I know, you ask me. > [@](#): > > The reality of athiests gaining more control over more countries is very real America is still **~90%** self-described Christians/believers. Over half of Americans believe in the existence of angels. Only 7% of Americans don’t own a Bible. There, there, you’re safe baby bear. It’s going to be all right. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ryanl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b487fb/32.png) [@ryanl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryanl)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/77 "2012-08-19T20:07:51Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Pure intellectual logic might very well dictate decisions that a person of faith could not justify. I may be wrong here but my logic tells me that if I only have to justify behavior to a higher power who would an athiest justify his behavior to. > We all know how individuals tend to change when power becomes more absolute. The reality of athiests gaining more control over more countries is very real and has many of us concerned, we just don’t understand what could guide the decision making process. You appear to have a misguided belief that atheists are incapable of empathy or are somehow lacking in moral beliefs. I’m an atheist, and I don’t need to justify to a higher power to both understand and feel intuitively that some things are _wrong_. Empathy for fellow human beings is a normal human trait that doesn’t need religion to exist. On the other hand, lack of empathy is a criteria for pathological mental disorders (e.g., narcissistic personality disorder) that occur in both religious and non-religious individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/78 "2012-08-19T20:28:05Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > ``` > I will try and explain my logic to this post. I don't know you and you don't know me so don't take it personnal. Over the past 30 or 40 years I have seen a wider acceptance of athieism. Thats fine. As it became more widely accepted the animosity toward bellievers seems to have gained momentum as well. So I am seeing a snow ball efect and wondering just how far it will go. Pure intellectual logic might very well dictate decisions that a person of faith could not justify. I may be wrong here but my logic tells me that if I only have to justify behavior to a higher power who would an athiest justify his behavior to. > > ``` What is this animosity, exactly? Having the nerve to publish books doubting religion? Say that we don’t want religiously based laws? Say that the US is not a Christian country? When religion was not moderated by secularism, atheism merited the death penalty, even in relatively enlightened places like England. You say a religious person justifies his decision to a higher power? How does he know if the higher power agrees? From the Bible?: Which verses? The ones where God commands genocide, perhaps? The atheist has to justify decisions based on ethics, the law, and how others will react. But, as Dylan said, “You don’t ask no questions, when God’s on your side.” > [@](#): > > ``` > We all know how individuals tend to change when power becomes more absolute. The reality of athiests gaining more control over more countries is very real and has many of us concerned, we just don't understand what could guide the decision making process. > > ``` Much of Europe is now effectively atheist. They think we’re nuts. The mother of my daughter’s German boyfriend was very concerned that we, being from the US, were religious fanatics. She was very relieved on hearing we believed in God no more than she did. I think most Europeans have learned firsthand what happens when God gets too involved with politics, they fought for ten decades for the God they made. BTW, thanks for not trotting out Communism - which is effectively its own religion, which oppressed other ones because they were competitors, not from philosophical differences. We can see this in response to your science comment. Just believing in God doesn’t hurt science. Believing you have the answers ahead of time, from the Bible, does, since if your research leads you to doubt your convictions you are in trouble. Happened with evolution, it happened with Lysenko who did well with a Communist instead of a scientific version of biology. Lysenkoism and creationism are very similar. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/79 "2012-08-19T20:33:30Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Most of the athiests I know are fine, moral, ethical and great people. I know quite a few. So no implication was mde. I was dead serious and I was including myself into that eqation, what would stop us if no consequences were looming? First count on me for not voting for you as world dictator. More importantly, I tend to doubt that people’s morality (or lack thereof) has much to do with their religious beliefs. It relies much more, IMO on things like empathy, values acquired from your culture or your parents, etc… IOW, I don’t think that the moral views of a believer turned atheist would change much. Do you really think that if you became an atheist, you would become fine with the concept of ordering a genocide? That’s a real, not rhetorical, question. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/80 "2012-08-19T20:33:53Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > My personnal friends who are athiests don’t seem to have ill feelings toward believers so I don’t include them in this question. Do you tell your personal friends that you don’t think they have morals? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962.md?page=5)