# If I didn't believe in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962 "2012-08-19T14:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/101 "2012-08-19T21:58:24Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Of course there is something preventing me from doing these things, I have a concience and empathy just like you hopefully have. Your comments about the magic man in the clouds are the ones that concern me. I am seeing more and more of this. > > On a scale of 1 to 10 1 being a zombie and 10 being all knowing. My guess would be that the smartest individual that ever walked earth might rate a 2. Why do you feel so certain that you are right and we have it so wrong. Ego, thats why! On a scale of one to ten, the smartest man that ever lived is a ten. What religion does is take a magic marker to the dial to fit in numbers eleven through twenty, even though the dial just doesn’t turn that far. ---
**Author:** ![TATG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@TATG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TATG)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/102 "2012-08-19T22:00:53Z")
Eliminate all human suffering by eliminating all humans. It’s obvious people! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/103 "2012-08-19T22:06:25Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Bryan, your post contained a lot of what I have been hoping to hear. I don’t believe public schools should even bring up creationism. > > Off topic, how can I outline a portion of a post I want to address, I don’t seem to be having any luck with this. Well, if I can be blunt, your lack of luck is probably because your position is very ill-defined. You’re expressing concern that atheists might do _something_, but the kind of _something_ that concerns you has historically been done by numerous historical dictators, religious and otherwise. There’s nothing specific to atheism that leads to abuse of power, so your misgivings are not specific enough to analyze. Do you recognize that an atheist can operate as a functional member of society through empathy and ethics? If not, if you feel atheists are only “faking it”, then I’m not sure what there is to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/104 "2012-08-19T22:12:17Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Of course there is something preventing me from doing these things, I have a concience and empathy just like you hopefully have. Then why do you claim that it is _God_ that is preventing you from doing these things? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/105 "2012-08-19T22:13:56Z")
Heh, I misinterpreted “don’t seem to be having any luck” to mean getting responses that he liked, rather than formatting quotes properly. In any case, though my post contained a lot of what badger was “hoping to hear”, he didn’t seem compelled to address any of it, which kinda of brings _that_ conversation to a screeching halt. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/106 "2012-08-19T22:17:18Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Your comments about the magic man in the clouds are the ones that concern me. I am seeing more and more of this. What about them ? You’re telling him there’s a god. He’s telling you there’s none. It’s not an assault or an aggression, it’s a difference of opinion, that’s all. Don’t go and push an idea if you’re not prepared to have people push back, no matter what the idea is. > [@](#): > > Why do you feel so certain that you are right and we have it so wrong. Ego, thats why! Well yes. That and no supporting evidence whatsoever of there being any kind of supernatural being, power, life after death or anything of the sort. You can believe in any god whatsoever all you want, nobody’s ever going to give the first of fucks. And you can congregrate with like-minded believers all you want to pray whatever god you want, nobody will give a damn either\*. But \*we \*probably won’t let you argue that both points of view are equally valid, logical or realistic without loudly clearing our throats, either. And we’re _certainly_ not going to keep quiet when you tell us that we atheists are all just one insightful flash away from going to town with a sports’ bag full of shotguns, a DIY vasectomy kit or setting up the Fourth Reich. Can you not grasp just how insulting, demeaning and dehumanizing that assertion is ? - Well, unless that god’s called Allah and you’re living in Real America of course, but that’s a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/107 "2012-08-19T22:21:10Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Genocide amoung humans and animal species has been common since the begining. It obviously has worked quite well in getting the world to where it is today. Religious extremeists killed pagans and non-believers since god first commanded them, and still do today. Did that obviously work just as well? ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/108 "2012-08-19T22:21:53Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Of course there is something preventing me from doing these things, I have a concience and empathy just like you hopefully have. Your comments about the magic man in the clouds are the ones that concern me. I am seeing more and more of this. > > On a scale of 1 to 10 1 being a zombie and 10 being all knowing. My guess would be that the smartest individual that ever walked earth might rate a 2. Why do you feel so certain that you are right and we have it so wrong. Ego, thats why! Are you egotistical because you don’t believe in Big Foot? Or is it only ego when people don’t believe in you? For that matter, are you egotistical because you reject atheism? I try really hard to assume that people who believe in God are as smart as everyone else, but it sometimes it’s difficult. You can look at areas of the country with stronger beliefs in God and compare them to areas with less belief and you’ll see that they tend to be poorer, less educated, less healthy. So why in the world would you think that declining belief would be a bad thing? Why do you think that crime is going up when it is actually going down? Why do you think America is besieged by atheists when not a single person in a significant leadership position has ever been a professed atheist: not a single president, vice president, speaker, majority leader, minority leader, or member of the supreme court. Not one, in the history of the country. What more do you want? If anything, poorly thought out posts like yours weaken religion. Why in the world would anyone take you seriously when every single premise of your argument is incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/109 "2012-08-19T22:30:17Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > On a scale of 1 to 10 1 being a zombie and 10 being all knowing. My guess would be that the smartest individual that ever walked earth might rate a 2. Why do you feel so certain that you are right and we have it so wrong. Ego, thats why! It has nothing to do with ego, quite the opposite actually. I’m atheist because I have never seen proof of a god, that’s all there is to it. It’s not because I’m narcissistic, or that I think I have all the answers, quite the contrary. I know that the universe functions just fine without the assumption that god exists. That doesn’t have anything to do with ego, that’s just acceptance that dropping god into the mix doesn’t help clarify how things came to be and how they’re tied together. Isn’t blindly believing in a god much more egotistic? You’re the one claiming special wisdom that we don’t have. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/110 "2012-08-19T22:30:26Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Why do you feel so certain that you are right and we have it so wrong. Ego, thats why! You’re projecting. My ego is not so large as to have me believe that god talks to me through the pages of some 2,000-year-old book and has such as interest in me, one of at least seven billion, and billions now dead over the past two or three millennia, that he cares what I think and reads my thoughts to check up on me. That way lies madness, and the world is full of it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/111 "2012-08-19T22:35:24Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Of course there is something preventing me from doing these things, I have a concience and empathy just like you hopefully have. Did you forget what you wrote in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/112 "2012-08-19T22:41:33Z")
It seems as though the OP is shocked to learn that there are people who need not ‘justify themselves to their God’ or live in fear of eternal hellfire, to make ethical and compassionate choices.WTF? At the same time his A typical atheist friends do exactly that. WTF? The concept of sin was manufactured by virtuous people, to explain the attractiveness of those who lived otherwise, in my opinion. Your ideas are why Christianity is failing. It’s not logical, it makes no sense, (genocide, really?), and yet you cling to it. If you want to live in a theocracy, there are plenty to choose from, go get a ticket and move. There are actual places in the world where Christian’s are being truly persecuted, your antics are somewhat shameful in the face of that. The assumption that Christian morality would always be the driving force behind policy and law, in the West, was an exceedingly foolish one. Your time in the sun is coming to an end, and many are glad of it. Whining and bleating about, ‘It’s not how it used to be!’, and, ‘state euthanasia is around the corner surely!’, makes you sound like chicken little without the gravitas. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/113 "2012-08-19T22:54:35Z")
I’m interested in the issue of human empathy. I guess you can call me a student of it. Through my education on the topic, I’ve learned that there are millions of people lacking empathy bumping around on this planet. Some of them are this way because it’s the way they were born. Others are like this because it’s the way they were made. They may meet various criteria for various psychological disorders. They may have different levels of psychosocial functioning. But one thing is for sure. The vast majority of them are law-abiding citizens. Oh, they may be miserable jerks. You may not want to spend a lot of time with them. But they aren’t murderous, child-raping, money-stealing criminals. Most are bumping along in this world perfectly fine. Living for the weekend just like anyone else. So what keeps them from being evil monsters? Well, for one thing, being evil is hard work. Most people can’t be arsed to stab someone in the back, when it’s so much easier to quietly seethe. Also, there are consequences to bad behavior. Is it worth stealing that candy bar when I could spend the night in jail afterwards? No. Is it worth telling my boss to fuck off when I really need a job in a tough economy? No. Is it worth screwing every whore in the neighborhood when my significant other can easily find out and make my life a living hell? No. Religious folk have the exact same mentality. They don’t want to do wrong not because they don’t want to disappoint the God they worship and adore, but because they don’t want to jeopardize their seat in heaven. They don’t refrain from violence against their fellow man not because they love them as Jesus told them to do, but because they don’t want to go to jail. No one wants “trouble”. Human beings are great at manufacturing trouble for the purpose of controlling people. Some would say religion is the best example of this. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/114 "2012-08-19T23:19:47Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > The assumption that Christian morality would always be the driving force behind policy and law, in the West, was an exceedingly foolish one. The idea that it _ever was_ is exceedingly ill-informed. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/115 "2012-08-19T23:42:19Z")
“Religious folk have the exact same mentality. They don’t want to do wrong not because they don’t want to disappoint the God they worship and adore, but because they don’t want to jeopardize their seat in heaven. They don’t refrain from violence against their fellow man not because they love them as Jesus told them to do, but because they don’t want to go to jail. No one wants “trouble”. Human beings are great at manufacturing trouble for the purpose of controlling people.” Catholics actualy have a word for this. Perfect contrition is when you are sorry because you hurt God, and basic contrition is when you are sorry because you fear the punishment. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/116 "2012-08-20T01:06:49Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > “Religious folk have the exact same mentality. They don’t want to do wrong not because they don’t want to disappoint the God they worship and adore, but because they don’t want to jeopardize their seat in heaven. They don’t refrain from violence against their fellow man not because they love them as Jesus told them to do, but because they don’t want to go to jail. No one wants “trouble”. Human beings are great at manufacturing trouble for the purpose of controlling people.” > > Catholics actualy have a word for this. Perfect contrition is when you are sorry because you hurt God, and basic contrition is when you are sorry because you fear the punishment. Too bad the child molesting priests don’t have a word for sorry because I feel empathy towards the victim or sorry just because it’s actually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/117 "2012-08-20T01:44:39Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > 10 years ago I would not have even considered a post like this. In the last few years I am hearing more and more about believers being basicaly lunatics, I see impressionable young people being bullied and coerced into a very specific line of thinking else they will be thought of as ignorant, not well informed, out of the loop etc. Rejection is a powerful brainwashing tool. Yes I am starting to become concerned. I would be very interested in seeing any example of this claim. I can provide a number of cases of believers doing what you accuse atheists of doing. From individual families being hounded in the Bible Belt all the way up to fairly nasty “Christian” coercion in the U.S. Air Force Academy. Where are there enough atheists in one place that they could even get away with this sort of behavior? (And IF atheists would engage in that behavior, why should they be deprived of the same fun in which Christains have been enagaged for years? 😛 ) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/118 "2012-08-20T02:08:11Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > “Religious folk have the exact same mentality. They don’t want to do wrong not because they don’t want to disappoint the God they worship and adore, but because they don’t want to jeopardize their seat in heaven. They don’t refrain from violence against their fellow man not because they love them as Jesus told them to do, but because they don’t want to go to jail. No one wants “trouble”. Human beings are great at manufacturing trouble for the purpose of controlling people.” > > Catholics actualy have a word for this. Perfect contrition is when you are sorry because you hurt God, and basic contrition is when you are sorry because you fear the punishment. Yes, and I’m betting the vast majority don’t even consider God when they do wrong. They consider the earthly consequences of their actions (people will stop liking me, I will lose my job, my wife will divorce me, I will be punched in the face, I will go to jail) before the abstraction of God’s disappointment even crosses their mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/119 "2012-08-20T02:10:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I would be very interested in seeing any example of this claim. > > I can provide a number of cases of believers doing what you accuse atheists of doing. From individual families being hounded in the Bible Belt all the way up to fairly nasty “Christian” coercion in the U.S. Air Force Academy. Where are there enough atheists in one place that they could even get away with this sort of behavior? (And IF atheists would engage in that behavior, why should they be deprived of the same fun in which Christains have been enagaged for years? 😛 ) I’ll add that Christians are not the only people capable of this type of behavior. There’s a reason my father moved me and my mother to America. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/120 "2012-08-20T03:24:27Z")
I mentioned Christian only because **badger5149** appears to be from the U.S., so, presumably, has the most contact with and affinity for Christians. Obviously, Muslims engage in this behavior and, based on reports from India, Sri Lanka, and other locales, adherents of Hinduism and Buddhism are also quite capable of such behavior. I would also guess that atheists–if they are in sufficient numbers–can also behave the same way. However, when referring to current U.S. society, a claim that such behavior is of increasing concern for some future atheist actions is rather silly in light of actual behavior of Christians, now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962.md?page=7)