# If I didn't believe in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962 "2012-08-19T14:32:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/121 "2012-08-20T10:58:31Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > First of all I have not had much exposure to online forums like this so I am likely a bit naive. But I was pondering on how leaders including myself might run things if I were an athiest. I would likley base all me decisions on the good of the planet and the human species long term survival. This would likley involve genocide and at the very least forced steriliaztion. This thought really upsets me because I see this as a very real possibility in the not so distant future. I am probably as kind hearted as anyone could imagine but I would feel the need to make unthinkable choices to save earth. Is this kind of thinking a possible reality??? If you look back at history you will see that there was a lot of killing just because some people didn’t agree with a particular religion…you know ..the Crusades and the Inquisition? And even now it is going on. I haven’t heard of any atheists killing people because they do believe…have you? Most of the Atheists that I know are more against killing, then a lot of believers. They don’t seem to go into a church and kill a man because they don’t agree with him, or a Temple for that matter, they just do not want someone’s religion dictating the way they live. So I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about that! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/122 "2012-08-20T11:51:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Objection; counsel is witnessing the badger… \ > [@Kobal2](#): > > Have you, _personally_, ever been the victim of “atheist animosity” ? Well, there’s this thread, although I think it’s fairly clear that it’s been well-provoked (albeit unintentionally). > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > badger5149 > > let me tell you a little story. > > A few years ago I read a story on the BBC website about a couple, who had committed suicide by jumping off some cliffs. The bodies were found, each carrying a large rucksack. In one was the body of their disabled son who had died from his medical issues a short while ago, the other rucksack was stuffed full with his favourite toys. > Turns out they were so distraught from their sons death that they simply couldn’t take it any more. > > Now as I read this at my desk, a mature man of English stiff upper-lip, I have to rush away and cry in the toilets. > It was the rucksack of toys that did it for me and I can’t begin to imagine the torment that poor couple went through, their distress was so great that they had no other hope than death. I felt this crushing, unrequited empathy. I never knew them but how I wish I could have helped them, words, actions, a friendly ear or whatever they needed. But I couldn’t. I don’t think anyone could and that seems so desperately tragic. > > Point is, I am an atheist. Always have been, never been a believer. What drives me and motivates me? The above story should spell it out clearly for you. Empathy. I care because that is what makes me human. That empathetic instinct is what raised us beyond the lesser apes, it was there long before we invented a god to attribute it to. > > Take that in whatever way you see fit, but I know I’m not alone in feeling this way. I remember that story too and found it heartbreaking. As the parent of a young child I could absolutely understand the level of grief that led that couple to do what they did, while simultaneously grieving that they did it and were not able to be stopped. As so many have noted, it’s all about being human. Not Christian, not atheist or whatever, but human. If you don’t have that humanity within you then no amount of religious belief will stop you from doing bad things. If you do, then you don’t need the belief in God to make you do good ones. ---
**Author:** ![furdmort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@furdmort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furdmort)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/123 "2012-08-20T12:01:24Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > As a kid I grew up in nature, pretty much an introvert. I studied the ponds that would form durring the seasons first rains.\*\* I watched how life started and then how it would become incredibly cruel toward the end of the pond cycle. Tad poles would be eating each other. The water fleas would eventualy overpopulate and wipe everything out, the pond would dry up and next year the cycle would start over. \*\*I have to imagine indigenous people have a much more realistic view of life and death than what we do as civilized humans. Our ego’s lie to us. > All these tribes had superstition and as many gods as they needed to explain how life worked. Today we have more understanding than they do but do we really have enough understanding to eliminate God from the equation? Sort of makes one wonder what sort of god would create such a vicious system, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/124 "2012-08-20T12:30:59Z")
Yeah… badger’s God isn’t being _rejected_, it’s just that badger’s God isn’t _necessary_. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/125 "2012-08-20T14:07:44Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > As a kid I grew up in nature, pretty much an introvert. I studied the ponds that would form durring the seasons first rains. I watched how life started and then how it would become incredibly cruel toward the end of the pond cycle. Tad poles would be eating each other. \*\*The water fleas would eventualy overpopulate and wipe everything out, \*\*the pond would dry up and next year the cycle would start over. I have to imagine indigenous people have a much more realistic view of life and death than what we do as civilized humans. Our ego’s lie to us. > All these tribes had superstition and as many gods as they needed to explain how life worked. Today we have more understanding than they do but do we really have enough understanding to eliminate God from the equation? Another point concerning this observation. The water fleas don’t eat tadpoles, they live on algae. Likely, as the stagnant pond slowly dries up, the concentration of algae gets higher and higher. Bounty Time for water fleas! See, today we know more than the tribal kid watching the pond. Maybe we should ajust a few conclusions that we were led to by religion. You are right that, as an atheist, my Ego is big enough to call hogwash on the wisdom of the old ones. I do know more about the world than some ancient Israelite in Babylon, pining for his home town. I don’t see how me believing the accumulated knowledge humanity has collected since, that we are ‘dust in the wind’, makes my ego bigger than that of a bleliever. Someone who believes there is an all powerfull being looking out especially for him/her. That sends little personal tests every now and then. And cometh The End that _ehem_… humble.. person will be chosen, with a few other select, to be raptured and sit at his master’s lap for Eternity while laughing at the multitude of writhing sinners. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/126 "2012-08-20T14:19:20Z")
Sometimes, though, God is too busy creating more suns and planets while making sure all the sub-atomic particles in the universe are following their proper paths, which, after all, is a full-time job all by itself. In such cases, it’s up to His followers [**to set things right**](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1243919--mentally-disabled-pakistani-girl-arrested-for-blasphemy). ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/127 "2012-08-20T16:25:34Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Sometimes, though, God is too busy creating more suns and planets while making sure all the sub-atomic particles in the universe are following their proper paths, which, after all, is a full-time job all by itself. > > In such cases, it’s up to His followers [**to set things right**](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1243919--mentally-disabled-pakistani-girl-arrested-for-blasphemy). I think maybe the OP had a point. Since I don’t believe in God I would not have known it’s morally right to arrest a mentally retarded girl for burning pages from a book. Those sorts of beliefs are not innate, they come from God. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/128 "2012-08-20T16:28:29Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > First of all I have not had much exposure to online forums like this so I am likely a bit naive. But I was pondering on how leaders including myself might run things if I were an athiest. I would likley base all me decisions on the good of the planet and the human species long term survival. This would likley involve genocide and at the very least forced steriliaztion. This thought really upsets me because I see this as a very real possibility in the not so distant future. I am probably as kind hearted as anyone could imagine but I would feel the need to make unthinkable choices to save earth. Is this kind of thinking a possible reality??? There’s a simple flaw here. You seem to be saying, “Without religion, we have to choose Utilitarianism as the basis for our ethical system”. No, we have to choose an ethical system. It’s not easy, but there you go. Most ethical systems in democracies begin with a premise of the sanctity of human life. That’s an agreement that most of us agree with, since it protects our most vital interest. 😉 Where to go from there is a long discussed issue, covered under the branch of philosophy called “ethics”. I suggest you make a start and google it, and follow many of the links to myriad ethical systems. It’s fascinating, both in terms of the diversity of answers, and also the extent to which different schools will argue over points that seem trivial. It’s great food for thought. But, to misquote Kermit, “It’s not easy being an atheist” (or any number of other “ists” who don’t believe there’s a “true” code of ethics dictated by some book or body of people). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/129 "2012-08-20T17:59:33Z")
**badger5149** , I am curious, is the reason you do good because you will be rewarded? Would you consider a person who does good with no promise of reward to have a superior morality? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/130 "2012-08-20T18:10:51Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > **badger5149** , I am curious, is the reason you do good because you will be rewarded? Would you consider a person who does good with no promise of reward to have a superior morality? ``` Sitnam, I believe I do good for the same reason you do, it makes me feel good. The positive way my body responds to the chemical reward it gets for doing good has taught me that feeling empathy can have a reward behind it. So unconciously I feel empathy just like anyone else with no thought of a spiritual reward. I know you didn't ask but certain bad things I do from time to time have mixed results, I get the chemical rewards that come with good sex for instance but then I am denied my normal dose of feel good hormones that I might routinely get just for being a good faithful boyfriend. I hate when I wake up feeling guilty and don't get my daily dose. This is when I have a little mental talk with a higher power I have no conception of. I tell him I was bad, I tell him how bad makes me feel and i promise him I will try and do better. I try to be as sincere as possible when I do this even when I am having a hard time getting the other woman off my mind. Amazingly, the obsession soon leaves, I forgive myself and I start to feel good again and hopefully but not always successfully learned a lesson. ``` ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/131 "2012-08-20T18:14:42Z")
As a side not I appreciate all the responses. I recently retired and am finding I have way too much time to think. I found myself fantazising about fixing the world from time to time. My logic tells me science is the best tool to do this with, no emotions just decisions best for the earth and humanity. Scary what the mind can tell me when I take emotion out of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/132 "2012-08-20T18:22:18Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > As a side not I appreciate all the responses. I recently retired and am finding I have way too much time to think. I found myself fantazising about fixing the world from time to time. My logic tells me science is the best tool to do this with, no emotions just decisions best for the earth and humanity. Scary what the mind can tell me when I take emotion out of the equation. But that’s what is wrong here-what in the world makes you think that atheists don’t use emotions when making decisions? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/133 "2012-08-20T18:27:06Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > I found myself fantazising about fixing the world from time to time. My logic tells me science is the best tool to do this with, no emotions just decisions best for the earth and humanity. But why would you think that mass genocide would be best for humanity? That’s what strikes me about your OP: you have compassion for humanity, therefore you think we should kill off most of them? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/134 "2012-08-20T18:44:08Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > Sitnam, I believe I do good for the same reason you do, it makes me feel good. The positive way my body responds to the chemical reward it gets for doing good has taught me that feeling empathy can have a reward behind it. So unconciously I feel empathy just like anyone else with no thought of a spiritual reward. Then I’m confused, what concerns you about the morals of Atheists? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/135 "2012-08-20T18:46:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But that’s what is wrong here-what in the world makes you think that atheists don’t use emotions when making decisions? I have never thought or believed this, however it was not beyond my imagination right or wrong to envison a godless leadership that would and could make decisions based on the lesser of evils. Simple as that. I know way too many athiests to believe you are not compassionate just like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/136 "2012-08-20T18:53:46Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > I know you didn’t ask but certain bad things I do from time to time have mixed results, I get the chemical rewards that come with good sex for instance but then I am denied my normal dose of feel good hormones that I might routinely get just for being a good faithful boyfriend. I hate when I wake up feeling guilty and don’t get my daily dose. This is when I have a little mental talk with a higher power I have no conception of. I tell him I was bad, I tell him how bad makes me feel and i promise him I will try and do better. I try to be as sincere as possible when I do this even when I am having a hard time getting the other woman off my mind. Amazingly, the obsession soon leaves, I forgive myself and I start to feel good again and hopefully but not always successfully learned a lesson. So it’s guilt that makes you feel remorse after doing what you consider bad. Since an atheist can feel guilty as well, I think we can rule out belief in a higher power as the source of guilt as an impetus to doing good. Apparently, belief in God doesn’t stop you from doing bad things, but just helps set you straight afterwards. Do you think it would be possible to have a mental talk with yourself rather than with God and get the same result? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/137 "2012-08-20T18:55:04Z")
> [@badger5149](#): > > I have never thought or believed this, however it was not beyond my imagination right or wrong to envison a godless leadership that would and could make decisions based on the lesser of evils. As opposed to religious leaders killing people because God demands it? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/138 "2012-08-20T18:57:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As opposed to religious leaders killing people because God demands it? Just a different line of thought I may entertain the next time I get bored ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/139 "2012-08-20T19:01:39Z")
OP, can you please respond to post #111? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962/140 "2012-08-20T19:19:47Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Did you forget what you wrote in the OP? I can see where I made an unfair implication. The implication was based on someone being forced to make decisons for the lesser of evils, not evil decisions in themselves. I guess my original implication was that as a believer I would not make the decisons, I would simply trust a higher power to do as he has always done, and as an athiest you would feel an urgent need to act and fix the problem not having a god to trust to his own devices. I don’t say this in an offensive manner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/631962.md?page=8)