If I didn't believe in God

Objection; counsel is witnessing the badger…

One useful observation: we have a fair number of historical instances of people who did have religious faith, and who, for one reason or another, gave it up. There are rather a few such persons participating in the Straight Dope Message Board.

Historically, people who leave their religious faith behind do not become criminals, or exhibit violent behavior, or promote extreme and catastrophic solutions (so called) to social problems. In the past, they sometimes became socialists or communists, but that isn’t as much in vogue today.

I’m a atheist. I have been in a position where I could have stolen something valuable, and nobody would have known. It would have been a “perfect crime.” I have no concern about God knowing about it and judging me. But I didn’t do it anyway. I have taken my society’s moral values into my own mind, my own character.

I think this is much more characteristic of atheists than Pol Pot was.

Excellent point. People have shown to be able to justify about anything under the cover of their peculiar interpretation of their peculiar religion (me being rich is an evidence of god’s blessing and them being poor of god’s reprobation so I don’t have to share, those guys who don’t agree with me are infidels that I should kill, their dark colour proves they were cursed by god, etc…)

Which again reinforces my opinion that individual morals don’t have much to do with religious beliefs.

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I’m a atheist. I have been in a position where I could have stolen something valuable, and nobody would have known. It would have been a “perfect crime.” I have no concern about God knowing about it and judging me. But I didn’t do it anyway. I have taken my society’s moral values into my own mind, my own character.

I think this is much more characteristic of atheists than Pol Pot was.
[/QUOTE]

Your behavior is pretty typical of most athiests I know who do perform with for the most part full moral resposibility. My fear is that with absolute power, this moral compass might become convoluted while trying to do the right thing for the masses involved. I don’t think athiests are bad people by any stretch, in most cases I would rate them very high on the humanistic scale. But I still have the concern that an individual with so much power feeling overwhelming responsibility to succeed could get out of hand in a bad way. Just as I have misconceptions about athiests I see many athiests have at least equally bad misconceptions about believers.

I don’t like anyone to have “absolute power”. That’s why we place limits on what governments can do. This just seems like fake “concern” about atheists getting “absolute power” when there is much more of a chance that a religious person is going to get it.

I love the way believers admit they’re one crisis of faith away from being serial killers, and act like that makes us the bad guys.

10 years ago I would not have even considered a post like this. In the last few years I am hearing more and more about believers being basicaly lunatics, I see impressionable young people being bullied and coerced into a very specific line of thinking else they will be thought of as ignorant, not well informed, out of the loop etc. Rejection is a powerful brainwashing tool. Yes I am starting to become concerned.

Oh fuck! That’s answering my question about whether or not you’d feel inclined to genocide if you became an atheist.

You know what I think? The problem here isn’t atheism, it’s your own morals and opinions. They’re dangerously close to nazis’ way of thinking. You should reavalute them a lot, assuming it’s possible, whether or not you’re religious.

Still don’t see it?

He’s not the one calling you a lunatic. YOU’RE the one calling yourself a lunatic.

But what on earth makes you believe that genocide could possibly be “the better of the good”? You’re talking about bringing pain, despair and death to what…millions? billions? of people and think that would be “for the good”? What conceivable “good” goal would all this suffering further?

And you’re saying you wouldn’t lose sleep about giving the order to kill millions of children, for instance? Seriously, is empathy a feeling you’re totally unfamiliar with? For instance, don’t you feel anything when watching the emblematic starving child in Africa?

The answer to your question is that you don’t give any one individual so much power. No divine intervention is required for that.

Historically, God has a pretty poor track record for keeping all-powerful leaders in check.

I do connect it. The unfit, the asocials, those others who have resources we would want to exploit (who said “lebensraum”?) should be eliminated or at the very least sterilized.

This guy is frightening.

The missing quote tag didn’t make it apparent at first that this was directed to me:

Well, I can see why this could be a matter of some concern - given a few decades (or just a few months, possibly), just about any society could descend into murderous barbarism of undesirables, as defined by the most ruthless elements of that society. Thing is, for the U.S., the same constitutional protections that have extended to atheists and allowed them to publish and express their opinions also protects the free exercise of religion. While it is possible there may come a time when Christians or Jews or Muslims (or all the above) will be routinely persecuted, imprisoned, “re-educated” and killed, I feel comfortable saying it’s a fairly remote possibility that can be thwarted with fairly minor vigilance.

Will there come a time when the majority of Americans follow no particular religion, or if they do, it’s mere lip-service to social custom? Sure, possibly. I don’t see an automatic jump from there to the banning of religion, though.

And, yes, government-funded institutions are indeed backing away from religion, to the point where a decorated pine tree at the White House might become known as a “holiday tree” and not a “Christmas tree” (a lot of people seem to assume this has already happened under Obama - Snopes says it has not), but I can’t say this strikes me as a matter of any particular concern. Certainly no American’s freedom to celebrate Christmas is under attack, and the so-called “War on Christmas” is a myth.

Do you really run all (or most) of your major personal decisions through the filter of what you believe God wants? You don’t have an instinctive empathy for the people around you? An understanding of and regard for the real-world consequences of your actions?

In any case, I don’t feel compelled to seek a higher power to which I must justify my behaviour. I’m an adult, with a well-developed sense of secular ethics and a reasonably comprehensive understanding of how society works and how I want it to work. Using those as my guide, I can navigate my way through life while maximizing my personal satisfaction and minimizing the amount of harm I do to others. I don’t need to ask God whether or not I should shoplift - I know that shoplifting presents risks to me (getting caught, arrested, loss of reputation and such) and harm to others (loss of store profit, forcing higher prices), and since both of those would make me feel bad, I refrain.

It’s unclear to me that a theist with control over a country would be any better. Rather, governments will work if no individual (atheist or otherwise) can get that kind of control, which helps if the people have become accustomed to responsible government, free elections and constitutional protections.

Frankly, I’m a tad concerned about the possibility of a genuine hardcore theist getting elected President, running on a platform of “I am God’s messenger, and a vote against me is a vote against God.” Since relatively few Americans will want to seem openly against God (or if they do speak out, there will be no shortage of determined believers to harass them), such a candidate might win. The checks-and-balances system will control such a President’s power to a degree, but he’ll be in a position to do a great deal of harm based on how he chooses to interpret scripture, and not on the actual real-world effects of his policies. After all, his purpose is to serve and please God, not serve and please the people of the United States.

Let’s pick an example - how do you feel about an atheist school-board member who thinks creationism should not be presented in a public school in anything other than a historical context (i.e. “people once believed that…”)? Is his decision-making process flawed in some way that you can describe?

badger5149

let me tell you a little story.

A few years ago I read a story on the BBC website about a couple, who had committed suicide by jumping off some cliffs. The bodies were found, each carrying a large rucksack. In one was the body of their disabled son who had died from his medical issues a short while ago, the other rucksack was stuffed full with his favourite toys.
Turns out they were so distraught from their sons death that they simply couldn’t take it any more.

Now as I read this at my desk, a mature man of English stiff upper-lip, I have to rush away and cry in the toilets.
It was the rucksack of toys that did it for me and I can’t begin to imagine the torment that poor couple went through, their distress was so great that they had no other hope than death. I felt this crushing, unrequited empathy. I never knew them but how I wish I could have helped them, words, actions, a friendly ear or whatever they needed. But I couldn’t. I don’t think anyone could and that seems so desperately tragic.

Point is, I am an atheist. Always have been, never been a believer. What drives me and motivates me? The above story should spell it out clearly for you. Empathy. I care because that is what makes me human. That empathetic instinct is what raised us beyond the lesser apes, it was there long before we invented a god to attribute it to.

Take that in whatever way you see fit, but I know I’m not alone in feeling this way.

Indeed. He thought that empathy was a natural feeling but that it had to be repressed in oneself and supressed as a cultural trait in order to successfully achieve what he believed was the greater good for the German race.

Bryan, your post contained a lot of what I have been hoping to hear. I don’t believe public schools should even bring up creationism.

Off topic, how can I outline a portion of a post I want to address, I don’t seem to be having any luck with this.

So there is nothing preventing you and your god from unspeakable cruelties, including mass murder — with no regrets — such as mass burials necessitating bulldozers and lime by the boxcar loads in death camps.

Yet you believe atheists have no moral compass, not your bronze-age, retributive magic man in the clouds whom you worship.

[QUOTE=badger5149;15401357Off topic, how can I outline a portion of a post I want to address, I don’t seem to be having any luck with this.[/QUOTE]

You go to the post you want to answer, and then click the “quote” button. The post you’re quoting should be bracketed by quote tags. Anything inside the quote tag will be listed as a quote.

You’re totally missing the point. If a person thinks they’d probably kill people for having bad genes, force sterilization, etc, etc, if they didn’t believe in god, that person has a problem. It’s not normal to want to do those things no matter your religious beliefs. I wouldn’t call a believer a lunatic, but any person, believer or athiest, who says those things raises a red flag.

Of course there is something preventing me from doing these things, I have a concience and empathy just like you hopefully have. Your comments about the magic man in the clouds are the ones that concern me. I am seeing more and more of this.

On a scale of 1 to 10 1 being a zombie and 10 being all knowing. My guess would be that the smartest individual that ever walked earth might rate a 2. Why do you feel so certain that you are right and we have it so wrong. Ego, thats why!