If I Hand-raised a Wolf Pup from Birth:

Factual Questions
41

In the horse world, it’s a fairly common phenomena that rescued wild horses can be trained, and will become incredibly loyal to their human trainer – but only that one human – this does not translate to other humans. They remain quite wary about any other humans. In effect, they become one-person horses.
>>>t-bonham

I just want to second what John Mace said. There is no real comparision between the wolf/dog relationship and the domestic/“wild” horse relationship. “Wild” horses are not wild at all, they are feral. They are domestic horses in the same way that there are feral packs of dog. The actual animal is unchanged but the environment in which they are raised/selected out of is changed. I have known several mustangs that were trained to be very “broke” saddle horses that could handle a variety of riders, including strangers. The only phenomena going on here is the environment- horses that are not exposed to humans earlier on will have a harder time being friendly with them but most trained well at a reasonable age (4-5 years and under is my guess) can be very suitable mounts.

I have, as a veterinary hospital manager, encountered several wolf hybrids. There is a difference between those I’ve met and the rest of the “pets”. At the same time, they are a highly adaptive species and can fit into normal human life (with correct handling of course) far easier than other wild animals I’ve had close encounters with. One example that strikes me as appropriate are hand-raised tigers. I met one that was bottle raised and it was obvious that there was no such thing as a “tame” tiger. This cub was three months old, with size and strength comparable to a pit bull and teeth even bigger, and it was “playing” with us by showing stalking behavior. That experience was disturbing and convinced me that truly wild animals are not “tameable” based on environment alone. Nothing quite like being stalked by a baby tiger- that could still #(**#(#((# you up if it got the inclination. I’m not much of a spook about that either- I had reallyl been looking forward to hanging out with tigers but it was a real eye opener.

42

As John Mace has pointed out, wolves and dogs are the same species. However wild horses and domestic horses are not the same species, being so distinct as to have differing chromosome numbers. Of course what you are talking about are not wild horses at all, but simply feral horses.

I have worked a bit with feral horses, and I have never seen or even heard of this phenomenon. Can you posibly provide some evidence for the claim? To demonstrate that it is an exception, rather than being common as you claim, I will point out that for many years cavalry horses were selected from trained wild horses. A typical animal would have been broken by one person, training completed by several others and could then expect to see to see a lifetime’s service assigned to dozens of different riders. I have never heard any suggetsion that they differed in any way whatsoever from captive bred horses.

I wonder if this statistic has any real meaning? By the time we remove the breeds of dog that are physically incapable of fataly mauling a human, and then factor in the type of people who want to keep hybrid dogs, and then factor in the types of environments where hybrids are likely to be kept and the resulting lack of socialisation…

I suspect that all the statistic really tells us is that hybrids are big animals that are more likely to be kept by macho types and more likely to have limited socialisation. In it’s current from it probably doesn’t do a lot to enlighten us about the actual psychology of hybrids.

43

For further clarification, the only extant species of wild horse is the Przewalski’s Horse. But a further clarification is needed since it’s unclear that the Przewalski Horse can be consider the living descendants of the wild ancestor from which domestic horses derive in the same way that the wolf is the living descendant of the common ancestor of it and the domestic dog. Given the unequal number of chromosomes, that seems unlikely.

44

My dad raised Huskies in Alaska. Sometimes, a bitch was staked out in an area where a “lone wolf” was known to prowl, leading to half-wolf pups. However, experienced “mushers” would not trust a half-wolf, only those 1/4 or less.

So, if a wolf/dog can’t be trusted, then a 100% wolf can’t be.

John, the whole “dog and wolf are the same species” thing has not been 100% settled.

See articles like this:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/1ah6dbrfwhcl09t3/

http://www.ifm.liu.se/biology/kurser/nbib20/Vila99_dogs.pdf

This article agrees they are the same species:
http://www.kc.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm

The evolution of the domestic dog
The earliest remains of the domestic dog date from 10 to15 thousand years ago21; the diversity of these remains suggests multiple domestication events at different times and places. Dogs may be derived from several different ancestral gray wolf populations, and many dog breeds and wild wolf populations must be analysed in order to tease apart the genetic sources of the domestic dog gene pool. A limited mtDNA restriction fragment analysis of seven dog breeds and 26 gray wolf populations from different locations around the world has shown that the genotypes of dogs and wolves are either identical or differ by the loss or gain of only one or two restriction sites22. The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence15,22,23.

In comparrison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence14 (Fig. 4). Therefore, the molecular genetic evidence does not support theories that domestic dogs arose from jackal ancestors24. Dogs are gray wolves, despite their diversity in size and proportion; the wide variation in their adult morphology probably results from simple changes in developmental rate and timing25.

But still many scientists use "Canis Lupus" and Canis Familiaris" Not “Canis Lupus familiaris”

http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/(z5yyt245iyzlro55tw1ryu45)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,13,15;journal,106,318;linkingpublicationresults,1:102024,1

http://www.springerlink.com/content/192fyae2qkydfhq3/

Wiki agrees, however.

Note that I am arguing that they are different species, it’s just that not all the scientific community has accepted “Canis Lupus familiaris” yet.

45

More likely, the meat bone triggered a powerplay that got more intense and the wolf won.

Si

46

And the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin hasn’t been settled yet, either.

The Biological Species Concept can’t be applied to domesticated animals, so the convention is to assign them to the wild species to which they are most closely related and from which they, presumably, derive. The fact that dogs may have mixed with other canid species over time doesn’t really change things. They only differ by about .2% in their nuclear DNA from wolves, and the overwhelming evidence is that they derive from the grey wolf, and hence are the same species.

47

Umm, John, you do know that just becuase a animal derives from another animal, it doesn’t mean they are the same species right?

48

I have no idea what you’re talking about. Go back and read my post. That’s not what I said.

Maybe you haven’t participated in the many threads we’ve had on that subject, but as **Colibri **has explained on multiple occasions, the BSC really can’t be used to classify domesticated species. The reason is quite simple: The BSC asks if two populations regularly interbreed and produce fertile offspring in the wild. Domesticated species, by definition, do no occur in the wild, so the convention is to assign them to the species from which they are thought to have been derived. The same thing is true for house cats, which derive from the wild cat, Felis silvestris. Whether some scientists still use the terms Felis catus or Canis familiaris is irrelevant. Both populations are considered to be the same species as their wild counterparts.

49

?? :confused:

50

I don’t know what is so confusing about the difference between domesticated animals and for wild animals. What I said is true for domesticated animals and I clearly made that distinction. Why you ignored it, and continue to ignore it is mind boggling.

Got it yet? DOMESTICATED ANIMALS.

51

I read that about that study, too. It’s a really fascinating story.

The guy who did these studies was a great genetics expert who was exiled to Siberia because his views were not the same as the Communist Party which believed in a Lamarkian view of the world. With not much to do in Siberia except raise foxes for their pelts, he started messing around.

He selected for only 1 trait in the foxes he bred - lack of timidness. That was it - not coat color, not other traits associated with domestic animals. If he had a litter of fox pups, the one who didn’t race away from the human caretaker as fast as his or her littermates was bred. In 23 generations he had essentially domestic foxes. Interestingly, they often had white on their feet and head much like dogs.

At one point I thought I could have a great get rich quick scheme by breeding and selling domestic foxes (they could be the next pot-bellied pig). Then a Russian student of mine told me that they stink to high heaven.

52

The Wiki article says they lost their “musky fox smell” after being domesticated.

There’s a type of fox, the Fennec fox, that people occasionally keep as pets. They are the cutest animals on the planet.

53

Soooo… back to square one. Take those foxes and start breeding. Select those foxes that stink the least for further breeding.

54

I raised a 31/32nd hybrid from 6 weeks, so I’m semi qualified (& was licensed at the time) to comment.

First off, wolves are NOT genetically identical to dogs. Dogs are not genetically identical to other dogs. Sorry to be snarky, but think about a Yorkie and a Lab. There are similarities, of course, but there are more differences. Some 1/16th hybrids are very wolfy, some 7/8th are very dogish. It just depends

Chinook was a marvelous companion and I was very well educated in his care and socialization, but my betrayal of him (I divorced his Alpha male), and his subsequent demise drove me back to Confession & the Church. Briefly, since I can’t lie to myself, but anyway. . .

A wolf requires the constant devotion of an overprotective mother of a human toddler, but they never mature. You are their “pack” and instict requires the pack be together – within howling distance – all the time. Pack membership can and does change naturally, but human methods of “divorce” or “new house” are unbelievably stressful for wolves.

I never let 'Nook alone with a child. He was liked kids, but he was also 135 pounds of bone and muscle, with 6 inch needle sharp fangs. He was good with kids, but he needed supervision with kittens & bunnies. Not because he would hunt them, but because he was too big and enthusiastic to pick them up safely to carry them back to Mama (aka me). Adult (domestic) rabbits, he hunted. Babies, no. Dead anyway, but accidently. He also seemed to mourn deceased animals. My adult cat trained him well, but I wouldn’t trust a wolf who didn’t realize cats are superior to him.

Wolves can not be left alone while you go to work. They are social animals, and need their pack more than any teenage girl.

Wolfy wolves climb 6 ft cedar privacy fences, and entertainment centers. They can unzip, unbutton and unlock more human devised fastenings than racoons or 5 year old people. They can have a sense of humor, a fondness for mint & marijuana, they lie and tease, and beg to have ther feet tickled. They can be terrified of brooms, and steal potatoes to hoard under the couch cushions. They can catch Grackles in their “hands” to toss in their mouth like popcorn. They can also panic and attack a fullgrown, well known adult human male.

Please, PLEASE, do not get a wolf pup unless you are 100% sure you will never move, get married, divorced, laid, have children, get a job, or die – at least during the next 25 years.

And make sure your Vet uses Fromme egg-chick rabies vaccine and will list the “dog” as a “mixed or indeterminate breed dog”

55

This site gives a good overview of the fox domestication study:

Study of the Molecular Basis of Tame and Aggressive Behavior in the Silver Fox Model

And this one goes into more detail (warning, PDF):

Early Canid Domestication

56

Thirded or fifthed or whatever on the horse- wolf comparision. We (hubby #3 & I) have had 22 rehab mustangs over the last 12 years. Horses are not always “one person horses” but, IME, wolves and mustangs are all devout titty-babies. Horses are dumber (as well as feral instead of wild), so it is possible to (excuse my crudity) switch 'em to another tit. Wolves don’t take well to that at all. Feral burros seem to be more wofish, surprisingly.

57

John has this exactly right. Whether wolves and dogs are the same species is a matter of definition. Since the definition of species according to the Biological Species Concept does not apply to domestic animals, it is impossible to settle the question by invoking the BSC. As with other cases where the BSC can’t be applied, one must use other criteria to decide species status. While in the past the convention was to class domestic animals as species separate from the ancestral species, the modern convention is to include them in the same species. The only thing to be “settled” is whether you accept that convention or not.

58

I see MadPansy has spent some time around wolves!

Sometime after I retired from teaching, I became a wolf docent at a local wildlife park for three or four years. One day I was a normal person and the next I was having mystical wolf dreams and reading everything about wolves that I could get my hands on.

The link that you provided indicated that this was a wolf-dog and not a wolf.

Although some of the descriptions just say “wolf” and not “hybrid,” they are all listed under the title of Wolf-Hybrid Deaths.

As of ten years ago, there had not been a documented case of anyone being killed by a pure wolf in the United States. I haven’t heard of any incident since then, but I am open to unbiased documentation.

I really disagree with you. Wolves avoid confronting human beings. Wolf-hybrids are very aggressive with human beings. You have only to look at Shayna’s list to see what I mean.

The reasoning is faulty, but you are right. The wolf-dog is less trustworthy, but the wolf is still never domesticated and very, very strong. The wolf is more likely to avoid you, but if she or he feels challenged, watch out! Never look a wolf in the eyes.

For treats we used to give our wolves icy cold melons.

Have any of you seen the movie Never Cry Wolf? I found it fascinating.

By the way, John, we also had three Przewalski’s horses. They really were wild. They had zebra like stripes near their ankles. We were told there were only about 800 in the world at the time.

In memory of Bjorn & Co.

59

In short: how true this story might have been… not at all. The guy was an idiot. A later poster was correct in that chronic malnutrition may have kept it more docile. A “red nose” pit bull is no stronger or better a fighter than a brown pit bull, or a black nosed pit bull, or a white-eared pit bull, or any other random physical descriptor pit bull. Rhodies are not particularly good fighters and in the US are not particularly physically capable, in general. I could go on, but that should give you an idea of what kind of an idiot this guy was.

60

As a side note, allthough most people think stripes = zebra, it is generally thought that having stripes (at least on the legs) is the more primitive (basal) form for all equines. That they survive to some extend in Przewalski’s is one piece of evidence for that.