# If I hear another butch faggot bitching about femme guys I am going to go postal. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912 "2001-01-26T20:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/161 "2001-02-08T17:18:33Z")
I can understand where all this came from, so I’ll ask outright: **Deacons** , do you denigrate anyone, either internally or out loud, for being in any way, subtly or grossly, what you perceive to be acting in a way that is stereotypically homosexual? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Kepi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kepi/32/7251_2.png) [@Kepi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/162 "2001-02-08T18:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > **Deacons** , do you denigrate anyone, either internally or out loud, for being in any way, subtly or grossly, what you perceive to be acting in a way that is stereotypically homosexual? Probably no more so than others who would denigrate him for having what _ **they perceive** _ to be “internalized homophobia” or for being, in _ **their view** _, similar to Fred Phelps. Or no more so than others who would assign motivations to someone they do not know simply because said person stated that he could not, and had no desire to, relate to individuals who have certain characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/163 "2001-02-08T19:00:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > \*\*I think his posts speak of an internalized homophobia that compartmentalizes his sexuality away from his core identity for fear of being pegged as gay and thus being thought of as weak and effeminate. > \*\* You are ascribing motives and feelings to Deacons, on damned little evidence. Not only is the evidence open to other interpretation, but Deacon has specifically denied that it means what you say it means. In other words, you presume to know more about what Deacons feels than he does. It sort of reminds me of certain Christians who say “Of _course_ being gay is a choice. They could all change if only they would open their hearts to God.” One of the most overused words around these days is “homophobia.” Not every criticism of some aspect of gay culture is rooted in homophobia. Believe it or not, some people might genuinely dislike the way a gay person or group talks or acts without being deathly afraid of homosexuality. I happen to hate the gangsta rap subculture. The music, the big-ass-chip-on-my-shoulder tough guy attitude, and the clothes all turn me off. That doesn’t happen to make me racist any more than the fact that Deacons isn’t wild about people who fit the “outrageous queen” stereotypemakes him homophobic. If anybody deserves the benefit of the friggin’ doubt when the charge of homophobia is tossed at him, I should think it would be an openly gay man. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/164 "2001-02-08T19:37:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\* None of us are professional homosexuals by trade (well, except maybe **andygirl** , but even then it’s in the context of the written word). \*\* Oh, how little you know me… 😉 All joking aside, I pull the “professional homo” schick because of the extensive activist work I do, especially with gay teenagers. I do think my life is too gay. I don’t know how to explain or quantify it, but I’m very much aware that because of the work I do, my life revolves around my sexual orientation more than I want it to. Now on to other things. I might be missing the boat here, but I get a general sense from some of the gay posters here (and the gay community at large, actually) that virtually any objections or criticisms of the gay community are internalized homophobia. I think that’s a fundamental untruth. And I can see where Deacon et all are coming from- there are most definately degrees of which sexual orientation is relevant and important in someone’s life. I do know some gay people, like many heterosexuals, who treat their orientation as an utter nonissue. It’s there. Big deal. And I think it’s unfortunate that degrees of being out or visible or whatever you want to call it serve as a flash point in the gay community. Also, homophobia and internalized homophobia get tossed around a bit too casually, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/165 "2001-02-08T19:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ptahlis \* > One of the most overused words around these days is “homophobia.” Not every criticism of some aspect of gay culture is rooted in homophobia. Believe it or not, some people might genuinely dislike the way a gay person or group talks or acts without being deathly afraid of homosexuality. I happen to hate the gangsta rap subculture. The music, the big-ass-chip-on-my-shoulder tough guy attitude, and the clothes all turn me off. That doesn’t happen to make me racist any more than the fact that Deacons isn’t wild about people who fit the “outrageous queen” stereotypemakes him homophobic. If anybody deserves the benefit of the friggin’ doubt when the charge of homophobia is tossed at him, I should think it would be an openly gay man. \*\* I don’t disagree with you that the word is overused. I think there needs to be better words to really encompass these issues. One could, in this case, use internalized self-loathing as well. Or, perhaps, internalized fear. This is not to say that he hates gay people. Nor is it to say I am right with my perception of what he writes. To say that a gay man has internalized homophobia does not mean the same thing as a straight person who is homophobic. In internalized homophobia, the gay man or lesbian has taken on and internalized so much of the hateful labels and ideas that have been forced on them by society and the media that they scrutinize themselves so they will not show the signs that would lead people to believe they are gay. This generally means, disliking or loathing gay men who are feminine, because they fear that people will be able to see these qualities in themselves and be given away. Most gay men and lesbians during the coming out phase have to deal with this. Some people don’t get past it. It can be a crippling issue that stops gay men and lesbians from forming healthy relationships or friendships. This is not to say that my words are the last word on this subject, or the most comprehensive. Just my two cents, adjusted for inflation to $19.95. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/166 "2001-02-08T20:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > The thing is, as a straight white male, he does live in heterosexual privelege. He gets protections and benefits from being a heterosexual white male in America, which extends itself in many cases to being hostile toward anything which threatens that dominance and power. **Hastur** , I wonder if you could tell this big ol’ ignorant straight white male what exactly is included with that priveledge? I was under the impression that gay men on average had a higher income that straight men? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/167 "2001-02-08T21:08:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Hastur, I wonder if you could tell this big ol’ ignorant straight white male what exactly is included with that privilege? I was under the impression that gay men on average had a higher income than straight men? An example: On the Metro the other day, I saw an attractive young straight couple sitting together. He was tall and handsome; she was short, blonde, and pretty. They kissed and she leaned her head on his shoulder. I’m sure that everyone in the subway car thought, “what a lovely young couple.” If my boyfriend and I did the same, with him leaning on my shoulder, I’m sure the reaction would run from dark looks to a mumbled “fuckin’ faggots” to physical violence. As far as higher income, this gay man is hurting financially. I wouldn’t mind making a higher income. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/168 "2001-02-08T21:35:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mouthbreather \* > I was under the impression that gay men on average had a higher income that straight men? \*\* As the late, great Harvey Milk once said when a senator he was debating with claimed that gay men had an average of 500 sex partners: “I wish!” ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/169 "2001-02-08T21:53:02Z")
[Am I a homophobic bigot? An invitation to judge me.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=59145) I guess you will probably see the thread anyway, but since the topic came up in here, I thought I would come invite you over. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/170 "2001-02-08T21:57:37Z")
**Matt\_mcl** , hmm…Altavista yielded this information, found here: [http://www.princeton.edu/~progrev/94-95/nov94ds.html](http://www.princeton.edu/~progrev/94-95/nov94ds.html) > [@](#): > > Corporate America’s desire to target lesbian and gay people is based on the assumption that queer folks are wealthier…The study found that the average income of gay men is slightly less than that of straight men, while that of lesbians slightly more than straight women. (The women, of course, made significantly less than the men.) So I stand corrected. **goboy** , you make a good point. I guess it’s tough for me to relate, because I don’t care for PDA at all, be they straight or queer. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/171 "2001-02-08T22:47:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mouthbreather \* > > I guess it’s tough for me to relate, because I don’t care for PDA at all, be they straight or queer. Easy to say, but when your very life can hang on someone else’s interpretation of what you do, you tend to notice little things like that. Things I’ve had boyfriends say to me while we were in a public place: “Don’t walk so close to me.” “Don’t touch me.” “Don’t hug me goodbye.” “Don’t sit next to me.” Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912/172 "2001-02-09T00:36:39Z")
I hate PDAs too. It always seemed like the couples in high school decided to suck face right in front of my locker and would get mad if I had the audacity to ask to have access to my books. Whatever. But that’s just me. I mean, I don’t have a boyfriend, never really HAVE had one…☹ so I guess maybe it’s jealousy, I dunno. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-hear-another-butch-faggot-bitching-about-femme-guys-i-am-going-to-go-postal/51912.md?page=8)