# "If I only had a gun": 20/20 on ABC Fri **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645 "2009-04-10T14:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/201 "2009-04-16T21:47:47Z")
Why not compare gun use to hand-tool use for the purpose of gathering accident stats? Some people use hand-tools every day, some people use them occasionally, some people never touch one their whole lives. I have to figure an electric drill is at least closer in form to a gun than a car is. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/202 "2009-04-16T22:00:43Z")
Since we have obviously derailed into yet another gun vs banning discussion, I figured I’d toss in some additional statistics (from [this](http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html) site, 2005): > [@](#): > > Leading Causes of Accidental Death in the United States > > … > > Cause of Death/Age Range All Ages Under 1 Yr 1-4 yrs 5-14yrs 15-24 yrs 25-34 35-44 > > Total Number of Deaths 97,900 100% 881 0.9% 1,826 1.9% 2,979 3.0% 14,113 14.4% 11,769 12.0% 15,413 15.7% > > Motor Vehicle 43,354 44.3% 168 19.1% 651 35.7% 1,772 59.5% 10,560 74.8% 6,884 58.5% 6,927 44.9% > > … > > Unspecified nontransport accid’ts 17,437 17.8% 572 64.9% 266 14.6% 267 9.0% 648 4.6% 895 7.6% 1446 9.4% > > … > > Falls 13,322 13.6% 8 0.9% 36 2.0% 37 1.2% 237 1.7% 303 2.6% 608 3.9% > > … > > Accidental Discharge of Firearms 776 0.8% 1 0.1% 18 1.0% 67 2.2% 202 1.4% 131 1.1% 153 1.0% So…total deaths due to accident all ages: 97,900 Motor Vehicle accidents: 43,354 Falls: 13,322 Accidental Discharge of Firearms: 776 From earlier, the total number of deaths due to firearms (including suicide, murder and accidental discharge, 2005): 28,663 Take out the suicides and you are more likely to die from ‘falls’ then accidental discharge AND murder by firearms. Put suicides back in and you are more likely to die from the flu/pneumonia than by firearms of any kind (63,001). And of course you are more than an order of magnitude more likely to die by either cancer (559,312) or heart disease (652,091) than guns as well. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/203 "2009-04-16T22:12:26Z")
The point of the specious reasoning was to point out the made-up category of “usage” in paring down the accident comparison to make guns more scary. No one, to my knowledge (and again, I ask any anti-gunner to come up with any study of gun usage in the “common sense” sense of the word) has conducted any study necessary to support the (admittedly reasonable, but still no more factual) contention that guns are more dangerous than cars due to the comparitive frequency of useage between the two. Reason is a starting point, not an end, and fact tells me that there’s about 1/2 dozen other, much more common means of accidental death to worry about before I need to worry about accidental gun death. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/204 "2009-04-16T22:35:01Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > The point of the specious reasoning was to point out the made-up category of “usage” in paring down the accident comparison to make guns more scary. > > No one, to my knowledge (and again, I ask any anti-gunner to come up with any study of gun usage in the “common sense” sense of the word) has conducted any study necessary to support the (admittedly reasonable, but still no more factual) contention that guns are more dangerous than cars due to the comparitive frequency of useage between the two. > > Reason is a starting point, not an end, and fact tells me that there’s about 1/2 dozen other, much more common means of accidental death to worry about before I need to worry about accidental gun death. Though if accidental gun death is strongly correlated to the actual _use_ of firearms, then that’s considerably more meaningful than whether accidental gun deaths are more common than other accidental deaths. After all, we can reasonably suppose that death by cyanide cocktail is an extremely rare death, but that certainly doesn’t make cyanide cocktails a safe drink. It’s even the case that posessing nuclear warheads are a demonstrably useful and effective deterrent against nuclear attack, but that if anybody actually _used_ the things, the deterrence effect would completely reverse and result in a reprisal nuking being almost assured. So, it’s entirely fair to question how dangerous it is to actually use a gun, to carry a gun, and to store a gun - as entirely separate questions, possibly (even likely) with entirely different answers. The answering statistics may not be avaiable…but the questions remain fair and reasonable ones and pretending otherwise or lumping them together is neither constructive nor reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/205 "2009-04-16T22:37:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’d be willing to debate whether you are actually “using” a gun when carrying it in a holster, but that or even carrying it in your hand could be quite fairly classified as non-use. After all, the way you use a gun, you point it at something and pull the trigger. Having it sitting unused in a drawer may be conforting, but unused is unused nonetheless. So you want to compare the number of deaths per automobile use with number of deaths per gunshot?! Yeah, that’s a worthwhile statistic for this debate. :rolleyes: The marksmanship ability of the average American? Come on! ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/206 "2009-04-16T22:39:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > So, it’s entirely fair to question how dangerous it is to actually use a gun, Yes, it IS very dangerous to shoot people. Is that what you want to hear? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/207 "2009-04-16T22:50:45Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > So you want to compare the number of deaths per automobile use with number of deaths per gunshot?! > > Yeah, that’s a worthwhile statistic for this debate. :rolleyes: The marksmanship ability of the average American? Come on! If we want to compare the actual risk/usefulness ratio of the things, lets compare accidental deaths per bullet/accidental deaths per _mile_. > [@DrCube](#): > > Yes, it IS very dangerous to shoot people. Is that what you want to hear? Dangerous to the user? To innocent bystanders? To you, if the gun is removed from your person by an assailant? (Variants of the prior question for before and after drawing?) What are the odds the intentions of the target will be misinterpreted, and they were not actually at threat? Actually, no, wait, I really was wondering if it was risky to point the barrel at your head and play with the trigger. Yes, that’s what I was asking. You figured me out. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/208 "2009-04-17T10:05:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you want a car to be a device to get you from place to place, you need to be able to drive it in a straight line and maneuver to avoid obstacles and make turns. Sounds like something one should have to take a test and get licensed for. Because if it’s done incorrectly, people could get hurt or killed. Not like those fun toys the handguns… wheeeeeeeee! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/209 "2009-04-17T10:33:28Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > No, you’re supposed to shoot the person shooting at you. And hope his aim is worse than yours. > > If it isn’t, you’re humped. Better luck on your next time around, thanks for playing. Yup. Cuz it’s all Cowboys and Indians man, Cowboys and Indians. I played that game too when I was a kid, but this is real life your talking about, right? Bang Bang Bang!!! BANG!!! Yer dead! HEE HEE heeee! _ **Us vs. Them** _. The American Way. I got my Castle and don’t you get on my lawn or look at my wife in the grocery store or BANG BANG BANG!!! Shit, man. Some punk 13 year-old will out-balls you every time with his gat 'cause he don’t give a fuck. And this is the way you like it? No wonder we’re so fucking backward here. We’re stuck in some 19th Century romance for might-makes-right adolescents. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/210 "2009-04-17T10:43:22Z")
What world are you attempting to describe? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/211 "2009-04-17T11:55:36Z")
How about if every fire arm owner was a perfect shot. How about the the only time said owner fired at someone was when they were huddled in a corner of their home as the bloodthirsty criminal was bearing down on them? The fatality per usage rate would be 100 percent. So, in this case, is that a GOOD number, or a BAD number? Death per usage is a retarded metric without other available info/context. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/212 "2009-04-17T13:28:18Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > How about if every fire arm owner was a perfect shot. How about the the only time said owner fired at someone was when they were huddled in a corner of their home as the bloodthirsty criminal was bearing down on them? > > The fatality per usage rate would be 100 percent. So, in this case, is that a GOOD number, or a BAD number? > > Death per usage is a retarded metric without other available info/context. It certainly is-which is why I was asking for stats concerning _accidental_ deaths per usage. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/213 "2009-04-17T16:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] It certainly is-which is why I was asking for stats concerning accidental deaths per usage. [/QUOTE] How does one quantify ‘usage’ of either guns or cars exactly? The only thing available would be some kind of guesstimation average. Why do you think this would be significant exactly? Why would the yearly accidental figures not be valid as a point of comparison? As an example let’s take 'luci and his statements about gun usage and compare them to a friend of mine at work. 'luci claims that he has an old 22 given to him by a relative that is around his house somewhere. Total usage…zero. My friend has a number of guns and she goes to the range every day (though she doesn’t use every gun she has every day)…total usage would then depend on what you mean by that (on an individual gun basis?..based on the persons gun usage?..bases on something else?). How would you average this out exactly? On the car front I’ll use myself as an example and my uncle. My car usage is…variable. Again, depends on if you mean my car or me when calculating ‘usage’. When I’m in town I drive to and from work every week day and probably 2-3 weekends a month. When I’m on travel I rent a car. So, it would depend on how you look at things. My uncle on the other hand treats his car as 'luci treats his 22…it’s around somewhere but he never uses it. So, his total usage is zero. Since afaik there are no figures that could be used as solid for ‘usage’ (regardless of how you define that) for either cars OR guns (or screw drivers, pocket watches or blow up dolls), this seems to be a red herring…and it seems to be a red herring used because looking at the accidental death numbers makes something painfully clear. And what is painfully clear is that, relatively speaking, gun deaths due to accidental shootings are not a major problem in the US…despite the fact that a large percentage of our population owns guns. A quick Google search turns up that approx. 1500 people die per year due to swallowing foreign objects (like tooth picks…this of course is a different statistic to accidental choking on things like food)…which is nearly double that of deaths due to accidental discharge of guns. No statistics are available however on the ‘usage’ of foreign objects being swallowed per year… -XT ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/214 "2009-04-17T17:07:01Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Yup. Cuz it’s all Cowboys and Indians man, Cowboys and Indians. > > I played that game too when I was a kid, but this is real life your talking about, right? > > Bang Bang Bang!!! BANG!!! Yer dead! HEE HEE heeee! > _ **Us vs. Them** _. The American Way. I got my Castle and don’t you get on my lawn or look at my wife in the grocery store or BANG BANG BANG!!! > > Shit, man. Some punk 13 year-old will out-balls you every time with his gat 'cause he don’t give a fuck. And this is the way you like it? No wonder we’re so fucking backward here. We’re stuck in some 19th Century romance for might-makes-right adolescents. Not me. Perhaps you. Do you really think that gun owners have an ‘us vs. them attitude?’ Or are you just trying to start a fight in GD. Your post reads that you have some backwards ideas of the typical gun owner. And I would suggest that you stop watching so much TV and get out in the world. All I wanted to discuss is the obvious set up by the 20/20 show that tries to show that guns=evil. I’m liberal. I voted for Obama. But I can still see a set up and lies when they are right in front of me. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/215 "2009-04-17T17:17:31Z")
And can we drop the ‘Usage’ Horse Shit argument? It’s pointless. Neither side will get any where there. The gulf between ‘anti’ and ‘pro’ is big enough as it is. Sheessss. My Plow truck is ready to go whenever it snows. My .357 is the same. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/216 "2009-04-17T17:22:11Z")
Do your neighbors get nervous when it snows? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/217 "2009-04-17T17:27:26Z")
[quote=“elucidator, post:216, topic:492645”] Do your neighbors get nervous when it snows? Only when I use a shotgun to blow a path to their door. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/218 "2009-04-17T17:28:49Z")
I think the neighbors in this scenario are already dead because some 13 year old with his gat let his balls hang out, or something. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/219 "2009-04-17T18:02:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It certainly is-which is why I was asking for stats concerning _accidental_ deaths per usage. > > _sigh_ You’ve been GIVEN those numbers. Or at least ball park figures. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/220 "2009-04-17T18:03:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If we want to compare the actual risk/usefulness ratio of the things, lets compare accidental deaths per bullet/accidental deaths per _mile_. Why? What could this contrived statistic possibly tell us? > [@](#): > > Dangerous to the user? To innocent bystanders? To you, if the gun is removed from your person by an assailant? To whoever gets shot. > [@](#): > > Actually, no, wait, I really was wondering if it was risky to point the barrel at your head and play with the trigger. Yes, that’s what I was asking. You figured me out. :rolleyes: Well, I apologize if I misrepresented your argument. It certainly seemed to me like you wanted a “statistic” proving that guns can kill people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=12)