# "If I only had a gun": 20/20 on ABC Fri **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645 "2009-04-10T14:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/281 "2009-04-22T19:16:10Z")
IOW you have nothing substantial to contribute, have no concept of even the concepts being debated here (aside from the fact that everyone who disagrees with you is a ‘gun lubber’ or ‘gun nuts on the dope’), and so can be dismissed as usual without further bother. I will say that at least you did manage to post your bit of insults and nothing in a paragraph format…which I suppose is at least nominally an improvement. Mind…I don’t mind insults, personally…but even your insults are lame. -XT ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/282 "2009-04-22T19:34:33Z")
I’m curious, **Gonzo** , what would it take for you to see the test as being biased or rigged? If the students had their hands handcuffed behind their back and someone cried fowl, would you still be saying “you gun lovers can’t handle any criticism!”? How about if a team of navy SEALs breached through the door with explosives after throwing flashbangs in the room and the only gun the students had was an unloaded musket in a locked closet in the back of the room? Still a fair test because the result is “see! having a gun is useless!”, right? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/283 "2009-04-22T19:54:08Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > someone cried fowl That’d be really chicken of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/284 "2009-04-23T02:42:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So…I wrote all that stuff up and as with 'luci it was in Japanese to you, right? It’s fairly clear you didn’t comprehend any of it. Hopefully someone else out there who is on the fence about this issue or at least not completely biased got something out of it. > > They knew how to shoot (in theory)…that’s not the same thing as being trained in combat tactics. I know you won’t get this (you can pick your own reason for why it’s incomprehensible to you…I know my own opinion on that score), but for the possible benefit of someone else out there following along: > > The shooter was a trained professional. The armed students knew how to shoot. This sort of match up is the equivalent of putting a guy who knows how to hit a golf ball up against a club pro…and playing the match on the club pros favorite golf course. > > Even if this were the case (and I’m doubtful if we are talking about folks who go out and get a carry conceal license), it merely underscores how biased the test is. The shooter was NOT a ‘minimally trained’ person…he was a highly trained specialist who not only was an expert marksman but also trained in combat tactics. Again, I’m not expecting you to understand this point…this is for the benefit of anyone else following along who hasn’t already managed to grasp this key point. The armed students were people who had some level of expertise (again, in theory…it was never actually demonstrated) in TARGET SHOOTING. None of them, afaik, regularly carried concealed (so didn’t practice even drawing their weapons from concealment), none of them had even minimal combat training or experience…and they were put up against someone who was a specialist in these things, and someone who KNEW THEY WOULD BE THERE AND THAT THEY WOULD BE ARMED! > > It was pretty obvious watching the show that the armed students didn’t have a clue what to do. Watch them. When the gun man entered the room the first thing they did was stand up and then attempt to draw their weapon (two pretty basic mistakes right there). Then they stood still in a full body open posture (like shooting on a range) and attempted to blaze away, despite return fire (something that I seriously doubt even an idiot would do if the bullets were real). The specialist on the other hand smoothly shot the ‘teacher’ and then tracked directly on the student (that, conveniently he knew would be there and be armed), turning into a side (combat) stance and maneuvering to the left while firing on the student (and also not paying much attention to return fire, which I seriously doubt he would have been doing had the bullets been real). > > This is like putting a guy who shoots in the 80’s up against Tiger Woods…and giving Tiger choice of course. > > Sure…in essence that’s exactly what they DID in fact. They set up a rigged demo to illustrate the point they were trying to make. Did it never occur to you that if they had a really valid point they wouldn’t have needed to rig the demo? > > Yeah…and cops hit innocent bystanders sometimes too. Certainly if there was a shootout in a classroom then there is a very distinct possibility that some bystander would be hit and killed. Maybe several. The point though is that the shooter is TRYING to hit and kill as many people as he can…and if unopposed will simply reload and move on to other classrooms to shoot more people. > > In theory, sure…in practice… > > Even assuming that’s 100% accurate though, you’d only have a point if there was a cop always available. > > And of course this has nothing to do with the show and the demo. > > Um…horseshit. Every single person I know with a carry conceal license goes to the range weekly at a minimum. One of the techs here with a CCW goes to the range daily. > > Even if this is a representative sampling of the polices opinions…so what? > > No, it’s a strawman you have manufactured. > > If they said you could practice on the golf course Tiger choose all week and play him on Saturday, do you think you’d stand a better chance then? > > As for bias…I think we all know who is biased in this thread… > > -XT Who the hell is trained in combat tactics to get a gun? Set the bar high enough? have you no shame? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/285 "2009-04-23T02:45:03Z")
Forget it Jake, it’s Gonzo town. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/286 "2009-04-23T02:59:03Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Who the hell is trained in combat tactics to get a gun? Apparently the guy who burst into the classroom to shoot up the students :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/287 "2009-04-23T03:23:06Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Who the hell is trained in combat tactics to get a gun? Set the bar high enough? have you no shame? [/QUOTE] And the really sad thing is, you aren’t kidding. You really DON’T get it. :eek: -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/288 "2009-04-23T15:13:33Z")
Our gun nuts will fight any program on guns if it does not say guns make us safer. I get it fine. In the face of clear and overwhelming data ,gun nuts rely on volume and distortion. This program did not even say guns were bad. Just that people with them are a lot less able to behave properly with them in a crisis. than they believe they can. Is that such a transgression? Well it is to people who defend any and all programs as slanted and anti gun, even when they are not. TV isn’t the only thing programmed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/289 "2009-04-23T15:37:11Z")
No…you [don’t](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11068212#post11068212) get it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/290 "2009-04-23T15:40:12Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > TV isn’t the only thing programmed. You are completely right, gonzo. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/291 "2009-04-23T21:37:18Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Our gun nuts will fight any program on guns if it does not say guns make us safer. I get it fine. In the face of clear and overwhelming data ,gun nuts rely on volume and distortion. > This program did not even say guns were bad. Just that people with them are a lot less able to behave properly with them in a crisis. than they believe they can. Is that such a transgression? Well it is to people who defend any and all programs as slanted and anti gun, even when they are not. TV isn’t the only thing programmed. First of all, if you want anyone to take you seriously, you might want to consider an alternative to insulting posts and name-calling your viewpoint’s opposition. Second of all, when I see an obvious and clear bias in a TV program, I’m going to call it out as biased. The fact that you ignore the bias because it fits in with your point of view about gun control doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And finally, please learn how to use commas. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/292 "2009-04-24T01:10:45Z")
To play devil’s advocate here, I did find a kernel’s worth of point in **Gonzomax** ’s posts. If I understand him correctly, he’s saying that the _required standard_ of most states’ carry laws is inadequate to meet the demands of a real tactical situation. Now this says nothing as to whether the 20/20 piece was biased, or how many CCW people self-train past the bare minimum standard, but I would cautiously concede that there’s a lot more to practical self-defense then a minimum score on a silhouette target. I would be the first to say that owning a gun doesn’t make you an expert in self defense any more than owning an ax makes you a lumberjack. I do think Gonzo has a somewhat disparaging view of the competency and intelligence of the average carry permit holder. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/293 "2009-04-24T01:47:51Z")
But on the other hand, regardless of the required level of training, people can and regularly do successfully defend themselves or property with firearms daily. Here’s a blog with over 4,000 documented instances: [http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html](http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html) But how could that be considering the lack of required training? Could people be slightly more competent than anti-gun folk make them out to be? My point is, if someone is going to go out of their way and obtain a permit to carry a firearm and buy firearms they’re probably going to put a little effort toward practicing with it too. ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/294 "2009-04-24T14:40:50Z")
Gun control arguments are born out of ignorance and fear. Guns are a tools; like an ax or window cleaner, a gun can be misused. Firearm accidents are unfortunate but they are a matter of personal responsibility - Those who are responsible shouldn’t be hampered by gun control laws aimed at a foolish minority. I will never understand the demonizing of guns. “Gun crimes” are just crimes in which criminals utilized an effective tool. If guns weren’t available, criminals would turn to knives, clubs, and maybe even ball-point pens. Want a cite? Look to Britain and Australia; many criminals still have guns and those that don’t are responsible for the spike in knife and battery crimes. Criminals are culpable for their actions, fearing the tools they sometimes employ is foolish. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/295 "2009-04-25T02:25:10Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > To play devil’s advocate here, I did find a kernel’s worth of point in **Gonzomax** ’s posts. If I understand him correctly, he’s saying that the _required standard_ of most states’ carry laws is inadequate to meet the demands of a real tactical situation. Now this says nothing as to whether the 20/20 piece was biased, or how many CCW people self-train past the bare minimum standard, but I would cautiously concede that there’s a lot more to practical self-defense then a minimum score on a silhouette target. I would be the first to say that owning a gun doesn’t make you an expert in self defense any more than owning an ax makes you a lumberjack. I do think Gonzo has a somewhat disparaging view of the competency and intelligence of the average carry permit holder. Also many people ,once they have a gun stash it in a drawer and rarely touch it. They are not reliable in a crisis. Not all gun owners are as expert and well trained as Dopers. But that is all the 20/20 piece was about. it was not anti gun at all. Perhaps it even suggested that gun owners should seek training if they really want to protect themselves, their families and the American way of life. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/296 "2009-04-25T03:09:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Also many people ,once they have a gun stash it in a drawer and rarely touch it. They are not reliable in a crisis. Not all gun owners are as expert and well trained as Dopers. But that is all the 20/20 piece was about. it was not anti gun at all. Then why did they not perform a realistic simulation? There are only two posibilities. 1)They didn’t know any better. I could accept that. 2)They wanted to make sure that the student didn’t have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/297 "2009-04-25T08:47:23Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > But on the other hand, regardless of the required level of training, people can and regularly do successfully defend themselves or property with firearms daily. Here’s a blog with over 4,000 documented instances: [http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefe...g/blogger.html](http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefe...g/blogger.html) As the bloggers point out, they consider that to work out to about two instances in the US per day, although they add an unsupported assertion that “research tells us this number is far higher”. They also seem to be pretty generous in defining the “self-defense” category, including guns being fired in fistfights between friends and relatives, and ranchers shooting wolves that are chasing their cattle. (Mind you, I don’t have any quarrel with livestock owners protecting their livestock from predatory wild animals, but I call it pest control, not self-defense.) Irrelevant but interesting tidbit: > [@](#): > > Todd Palin’s half sister is arrested for burglary > > Todd Palin’s half-sister was arrested Thursday after police say she broke into a Wasilla home to steal money for the second time this week but ended up getting caught by the armed homeowner. The woman’s 4-year-old daughter was nearby, police said. > > Todd Palin is Gov. Sarah Palin’s husband. He referred questions to a spokeswoman for the governor, who said the family would have no comment. [Hee](http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Sarah_Palin_Gun_Control.htm): > [@](#): > > “The right to own guns and use them responsibly is something I and many other Alaskans cherish,” Governor Palin said. “Especially when my sister-in-law drops in!” ---
**Author:** ![csinsomniak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cab0a1/32.png) [@csinsomniak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/csinsomniak)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/298 "2010-04-30T04:46:25Z")
Hello everyone, I don’t know why I didn’t post before but I am actually one of the kids from the garage experiment in the episode. Its a crazy story of how I got there though. I knew I was being filmed and even wore my highschool’s shirt reading “BERNARDS SWIMMING” in my appearence. I was the kid who was talking on the phone with the gun in his hand. What happened was I responded to a craigslist ad saying $75 bucks for an hour of work so of course I replied and showed up when I was told but when I got there, they told me the power was out (so cameras wouldn’t work) and showed me all the cameras in the house. They even paid me. Then they contacted me again and I said why the hell not, I figured they would just pay me again if i showed up even if they recognize me. As it turns out, they had no idea that I had been to the same house before and I had a great time making a joke out of their show, pointing the gun at my face while talking on the phone and such. I wanted to tell people about this earlier. Pretty funny how easy it was to trick the mainstream media! I’d like to hear what others have to say on this… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=14)