# "If I only had a gun": 20/20 on ABC Fri **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645 "2009-04-10T14:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/41 "2009-04-10T23:09:09Z")
**Begbert:** Motivation isn’t my point, I’m about the _likelihood_ of neccesity. Yoiu may be struck by lightning, doesn’t mean you jam a lightning rod up yer ass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/42 "2009-04-10T23:13:34Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > …(ostensibly one of the few classes of individuals gun banners thinks should be allowed to carry and possess firearms) … I like this, this is nifty. You’ve managed to find a way to suggest that this incident _bolsters_ your argument! Have you considered a career in the law? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/43 "2009-04-10T23:19:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Begbert:** > > Motivation isn’t my point, I’m about the _likelihood_ of neccesity. Yoiu may be struck by lightning, doesn’t mean you jam a lightning rod up yer ass. I think the likelihood of a uniformed cop being mugged is about zero, so I’m not sure what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/44 "2009-04-10T23:33:24Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > [Yup.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PYHR72u51Q) > > As in most things comedic, timing is everything. > > Pardon my schadenfreud as I watch yet another “highly trained professional law enforcement officer” (ostensibly one of the few classes of individuals gun banners thinks should be allowed to carry and possess firearms) demonstrate laughable incompetence. > > Fortunately he only shot himself. With a room full of school children, I shudder to think of the possible outcomes of his demonstrable negligence and incompetence. Didn’t he go on to try to demonstrate an AR-15 and people where shouting to put it down and running from the room? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/45 "2009-04-10T23:35:32Z")
OK, riddle me this. Suppose I do end up in a situation where someone is shooting at me. Now, I don’t know about you, but my highest priority in this situation is “don’t get shot”. I can see how a bullet-resistant vest might help me to achieve this goal, or a SWAT-team shield. I can’t see how a gun would help me. What am I supposed to do, shoot the other guy’s bullets out of the air? Shoot his trigger finger off? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/46 "2009-04-10T23:40:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, riddle me this. Suppose I do end up in a situation where someone is shooting at me. Now, I don’t know about you, but my highest priority in this situation is “don’t get shot”. I can see how a bullet-resistant vest might help me to achieve this goal, or a SWAT-team shield. I can’t see how a gun would help me. What am I supposed to do, shoot the other guy’s bullets out of the air? Shoot his trigger finger off? No, you’re supposed to shoot the person shooting at you. And hope his aim is worse than yours. If it isn’t, you’re humped. Better luck on your next time around, thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/47 "2009-04-10T23:41:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, riddle me this. Suppose I do end up in a situation where someone is shooting at me. Now, I don’t know about you, but my highest priority in this situation is “don’t get shot”. I can see how a bullet-resistant vest might help me to achieve this goal, or a SWAT-team shield. I can’t see how a gun would help me. What am I supposed to do, shoot the other guy’s bullets out of the air? Shoot his trigger finger off? I think you’re supposed to kill the bastard. Of course, this is probably easier to do if you don’t get shot while getting your weapon out. (I suspect. I have not done proper experiments on this.) ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/48 "2009-04-10T23:45:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How about “Is a crane an effective tool to move heavy loads up to high places?” > Is the answer “Yes, that is a crane’s function.” Or is it “No, because without proper training the average person is much more likely to make a mess of things than use the crane properly.” Few people who aren’t trained to operate a construction crane would think of trying to do so. But, there are plenty of people without training in self defense, weapons handling and gun safety, who nevertheless feel sure they’d be able to save the day if they had a gun in their hands. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/49 "2009-04-10T23:50:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I think the likelihood of a uniformed cop being mugged is about zero, so I’m not sure what your point is. Not about mugging. A policeman has a riskier occupation, in terms of potential violence. Hard to imagine one riskier, outside of the criminals themselves. Yet, policemen rarely need to use lethal force in self-defense. How much less likely is a teacher, fireman or yoga instructor to need such lethal force, if the person at most risk never does? Mugging, pandhandling, kidnapping, solicitation, whatever, doesn’t enter into it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/50 "2009-04-11T00:08:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not about mugging. A policeman has a riskier occupation, in terms of potential violence. Hard to imagine one riskier, outside of the criminals themselves. Yet, policemen rarely need to use lethal force in self-defense. How much less likely is a teacher, fireman or yoga instructor to need such lethal force, if the person at most risk never does? > > Mugging, pandhandling, kidnapping, solicitation, whatever, doesn’t enter into it. Well, they do if you’re trying to compare incomparable situations - which I think you are. To put it simply, the cop will never face “Mugging, pandhandling, kidnapping, solicitation, whatever” on duty, so the fact that they don’t use their gun doesn’t speak one way or the other as to whether the gun is useful in such situations. Which isn’t to say it _would_ be, but you can’t argue against that fact by pointing out that cops in completely different situations don’t use their guns much. (And actually, the amount they _shoot_ their guns isn’t even a metric for how often they benefit from having them - you can gan success from threatening without shooting.) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/51 "2009-04-11T00:23:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not about mugging. A policeman has a riskier occupation, in terms of potential violence. Hard to imagine one riskier, outside of the criminals themselves. Yet, policemen rarely need to use lethal force in self-defense. How much less likely is a teacher, fireman or yoga instructor to need such lethal force, if the person at most risk never does? > > Mugging, pandhandling, kidnapping, solicitation, whatever, doesn’t enter into it. Because the LEO is never a random target for a mugger? I wonder when the last time a LEO on duty was mugged? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/52 "2009-04-11T01:07:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not about mugging. A policeman has a riskier occupation, in terms of potential violence. Hard to imagine one riskier, outside of the criminals themselves. Yet, policemen rarely need to use lethal force in self-defense. How much less likely is a teacher, fireman or yoga instructor to need such lethal force, if the person at most risk never does? > > Mugging, pandhandling, kidnapping, solicitation, whatever, doesn’t enter into it. The false notion here is that the beneficial effect of a gun can only be measured by actually shooting someone. If the police didn’t carry guns, how many more would be injured by criminals who were now emboldened to try to injure a cop enough to escape? Similarly, if someone’s robbery or home invasion is prevented by a guy racking the slide of his shotgun, this isn’t a success to you because he didn’t shoot anyone. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/53 "2009-04-11T01:44:42Z")
Well, I hadn’t actually considered counting, but now that you bring it up, wouldn’t that be an excellent argument for the pro-gun side, you know, compile all those incidents of home invasion thwarted by the armed citizens every day! Pile them up in the middle, in their hundeds…well, maybe not hundreds, perzackly…but a whole bunch! A lot! But, heck, you guys probably got that right at your fingertips! ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/54 "2009-04-11T02:21:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, I hadn’t actually considered counting, but now that you bring it up, wouldn’t that be an excellent argument for the pro-gun side, you know, compile all those incidents of home invasion thwarted by the armed citizens every day! Pile them up in the middle, in their hundeds…well, maybe not hundreds, perzackly…but a whole bunch! A lot! > > But, heck, you guys probably got that right at your fingertips! > [@](#): > > In the second edition of his book More Guns, Less Crime, John R. Lott, Jr. writes, “If a national survey that I conducted is correct, 98 percent of the time that people use guns defensively, they merely have to brandish a weapon to break off an attack” (Lott 2000b, p. 3) but you knew that would get quoted - we have been down this path before! For anecdotes, there is always the monthly collection the NRA puts together called The Armed Citizen: [http://www.nrapublications.org/AC/index.html](http://www.nrapublications.org/AC/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/55 "2009-04-11T02:30:57Z")
> [@](#): > > No, you’re supposed to shoot the person shooting at you. And hope his aim is worse than yours. > > If it isn’t, you’re humped. Better luck on your next time around, thanks for playing. But shooting the guy that’s shooting at me won’t stop him from shooting at me; it just means that ten minutes later when I die of blood loss, he does too. That doesn’t help me at all. As for the police, in many other countries they do just fine without carrying guns. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/56 "2009-04-11T02:46:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But shooting the guy that’s shooting at me won’t stop him from shooting at me; If you’re quick enough, and your aim is accurate, it may. > [@Chronos](#): > > …it just means that ten minutes later when I die of blood loss, he does too. That doesn’t help me at all. Only if he shoots you. Aim well. * * * I never claimed it was a perfect solution. I offer no guarantees. You want a gurantee? Talk to a salesman. But ask yourself this: in a “situation,” would you rather cower beneath cover, hoping the gunman doesn’t find you and shoot you? Or would you rather have an option? That’s all concealed carry offers: an option. If anyone tells you “it’s a sure thing that you can protect yourself,” they’re full of shit and trying to sell you something. > [@Chronos](#): > > As for the police, in many other countries they do just fine without carrying guns. Good for those countries. I’m sure there are plenty of jurisdictions in the U.S. where much the same could probably be said. But go ask the NYPD, or LAPD, what they think about the idea of disarming themselves. Or go ask London Metro what _they_ think about the same. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/57 "2009-04-11T02:53:42Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > If you’re quick enough, and your aim is accurate, it may. > > Only if he shoots you. Aim well. > > * * * > > I never claimed it was a perfect solution. I offer no guarantees. You want a gurantee? Talk to a salesman. > > But ask yourself this: in a “situation,” would you rather cower beneath cover, hoping the gunman doesn’t find you and shoot you? Or would you rather have an option? > > That’s all concealed carry offers: an option. > > If anyone tells you “it’s a sure thing that you can protect yourself,” they’re full of shit and trying to sell you something. > > Good for those countries. I’m sure there are plenty of jurisdictions in the U.S. where much the same could probably be said. > > But go ask the NYPD, or LAPD, what they think about the idea of disarming themselves. > > Or go ask London Metro what _they_ think about the same. Amen. I don’t own a gun. Little kids and all. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/58 "2009-04-11T03:25:10Z")
I just watched the 20/20. In one scenario, they set up a student in a classroom setting with a bunch of other students that where actually cops or employees of ABC. They give the student a firearm (armed with dye pellets). He does not know that a gunman is going to break in (fair enough and realistic) A firearms instructor comes in, shoots the teacher and shoots the armed student. They ran this with different students about 4 times. Each time, it looked to me that the gunman knew exactly which person (the student) was armed. And thus who to target as soon as he burst in the door. There where about 20 people in the class. Obviously, it’s a set up. But I think set up to the point where the ‘gunman’ knows who to hit first. I will have to watch it again. What did you folks see? Re: the gun show loop hole… That is a bit odd. Perhaps we should have private sales go through a FFL. That would be OK with me. That kids and especially teenagers would handle firearms the way they did is astonishing to me. But then, I’ve been shooting since I was 9. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/59 "2009-04-11T03:36:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, I hadn’t actually considered counting, but now that you bring it up, wouldn’t that be an excellent argument for the pro-gun side, you know, compile all those incidents of home invasion thwarted by the armed citizens every day! Pile them up in the middle, in their hundeds…well, maybe not hundreds, perzackly…but a whole bunch! A lot! > > But, heck, you guys probably got that right at your fingertips! [2 million a year, +/-](http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/60 "2009-04-11T03:44:31Z")
Ok, the 20/20 episode has aired, here are my impressions: The simulated gunman attacks: they had one (1) armed student at a time, taken totally by surprise in an ambush. The students with the guns were carrying the guns in the most inaccessible possible position: a hip holster, in sitting position, with those goddamn ass-length sweatshirts pulled way down over the holster; and they were penned in front, back and sides by the rows of desks. Realistic simulation? I call bullshit. ETA: **enipla** , that’s the impression I got too in at least one case, that after “shooting” the instructor, the gunman immediately targeted the student with the gun. The footage of the shop owner firing back at two robbers. Much was made of the fact that none of the shots fired hit. Little was said about the fact that after taking fire from the shopowner, the attempted robbers ran. Kids playing with guns and shooting their friends: apparently lots of morons leave unsecured loaded guns in their homes, and even more moronic teens play around with guns they don’t know are loaded. I think this qualifies for my thread **Idiocracy meets the Darwin Awards**. What to do when you find a gun: apparently the correct response is to treat it like an armed bomb and run screaming for help. The ONLY alternative is to play with it like a toy. The cute lil’ boy from the Hood: an impoverished gang-ridden ghetto town has a gun violence problem? Whoda’ thought it? The gun show loophole: ok, it’s disturbingly easy to bypass background checks while purchasing a gun. Point conceded. Shooting in a crisis situation is much harder than target practice? Admittedly. Which is why anyone serious about self-defense doesn’t just buy a gun, and doesn’t just put in range time, but invests in serious tactical training. And this says nothing of the times when a gun might serve as a deterrent in a non- OK Corral situation. And finally, here in Minneapolis Minnesota, the 20/20 segment was followed up by local news with some supremely ironic counterpoints: St Paul can’t afford to real-time monitor the public security cameras installed for the Republican National Convention; a small town is having to shut down it’s police force and rely on the county sheriffs for protection, to the worry of residents; and a severe ammo shortage is leaving many outlets completely sold out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=4)