# "If I only had a gun": 20/20 on ABC Fri **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645 "2009-04-10T14:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/101 "2009-04-11T19:16:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … that if we try to mimic them the result will be the same here. Point well taken here, I also despair of any quick and effective solution to the problem. But we are presented with the proposition that no problem exists, and that is quite another matter altogether. If we have no other solution but the agonizingly slow process of changing our culture by promoting sane and sensible views, we face a disheartening and tiresome prospect, to be sure. But the rock will not roll itself uphill, we do no one any favors by letting nonsense carry the day. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/102 "2009-04-11T21:13:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I remember listening to Bruce Williams (primarily business-related program) on the radio once and he was trying to dissuade some guy from jumping into a foolish business venture. The guy he was talking to kept coming back to someone he’d read about who’d done something similar successfully and he wouldn’t be convinced otherwise. Williams finally made his point successfully by putting it his way: “You know, I was in a plane crash once, and even though I was hospitalized for months I was lucky and I survived. Now, does that mean that if you’re in a plane crash you’ll survive?” > > Hopefully the day will come when American liberals realize that this is not Europe (or Asia or anywhere else). When European countries were being established, the weapons of choice to establish them were battle axes, broad swords and long bows. When the U.S. was established, guns were the order of the day. The right to arm ourselves exists in the Constitution. The number of guns that exist in this country today are in the millions. Civilian firearm restrictions aren’t the reason that there is so little gun crime in other countries, it’s because guns were never there in large numbers among the populace to begin with. Given the huge number of guns that exist in this country, a great many of which no one even knows exist, it would be impossible to restrict or eliminate enough of them to keep them out of the hands of the criminal element. Criminals in other countries don’t have ready access to firearms because firearms have been relatively scarce there to begin with and that is the primary reason they have so little gun crime. Had the U.S. been settled before the advent of guns, or had we brutal dictatorships like existed/exists in Asia, we could have low gun crime just like they do. But again this is not someplace else, and just because things are different there it does not follow, ipso facto, that if we try to mimic them the result will be the same here. While I agree with the general gist of your post, I don’t agree (and I don’t have any cites) that firearms or as scarce or as hard to acquire in European countries as you state. Perhaps more difficult than in the US, but I imagine any crook hellbent on getting a weapon can pretty easily obtain one if they have the money to buy it. What’s that old gag Robin Williams used to do about the bobbies in England trying to catch a criminal? “Stop!! Or I’ll yell stop again!” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/103 "2009-04-11T21:51:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > All countries have armed specialist squads for those rare occasions when they’re needed, but in many places, the majority of cops do not carry guns. What’s more, the places where the cops can do this are, as you say, the places where civilian firearm ownership is highly restricted, which are precisely those places which the pro-gun contingent assures us ought to be the most dangerous. I’m a pro-gun person and I’ve never argued that the most dangerous societies ought to be the ones without firearms. Violence in my mind is a combination of various things, some socioeconomic, some cultural, and some of it being based on government stability. Combine a weak government with poverty and a culture of violence and you’ll find a blood bath. Look at Juarez, Mexico for an example of what I’m talking about. Whether or not the people are legally allowed to own guns to me, isn’t an important figure in assessing criminality in a population. The United States has a higher crime rate than many countries with fewer guns, but we also have a lower crime rate than many countries with less guns. > [@](#): > > And in the situation under discussion, I’m being fired on, too, so my aim should be spoiled too, right? And “once I have killed them” doesn’t do me any good, because my assailant is going to be out of bullets long before that point, since I’m almost certainly not going to kill him instantly. If you carry a weapon for self defense you should be trained in its proper use, if you’re not then you shouldn’t carry one. If you don’t think being able to return fire is ever useful then I think you should probably (if you’re interested) do some studying, because that’s an asinine argument. You make a lot of assumptions in this thread, like, “If I’m ever shot at, I’ll be hit with a mortal wound first, so what good would a gun do?” Something you’ll be surprised to know is a lot of people who use firearms have horrible aim because they don’t know how to use them properly. There’s a reason that many times when forces of the United States military are ambushed we end up killing more of the ambushers than they kill us, even with them having the first shots and the tactical advantage. In the Army we stressed accuracy, in a lot of unorganized militias the focus seems to be more on maximizing the number of bullets sent flying through the air. With effective cover and superior accuracy boys not far out of high school can kill many times their own number of ambushing insurgents. For the record though, I don’t carry a weapon for self defense because I don’t think I need one. I feel very safe in the United States, the small chance I’d ever need a gun to me is outweighed by the inconvenience of carrying. As for your nerves under fire, with proper training being shot at isn’t enough to unnerve you, one issue with people who carry firearms for self defense is of course most of them probably aren’t sufficiently trained to be at that point. A gun could definitely be used to scare away an assailant if the assailant is unarmed–and I’m definitely sure this is the case in a **home defense** situation when the assailant is an unarmed burglar who was hoping to find a house unoccupied. But one must never assume a gun can be carried as a scare device. Years ago after my father died my mother started to get a little uneasy about going out alone sometimes (especially to the bank and such to get money) and about living by herself. It was a bit of an irrational fear, but she asked me one day if I could come show her how to use my dad’s old revolver. The first thing I told her was, “If you’re not willing to kill someone with it, then you shouldn’t even pick it up.” She ended up giving his guns to me instead. Using a gun to scare someone away could just lead to escalation, and at that point if you aren’t willing to use it then it could end up being used against you. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/104 "2009-04-11T22:04:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No doubt an exaggeration. On the other hand, what number would you find unacceptable? What number of automobile accident deaths per year would you find unacceptable? What number of accidental poisoning deaths per year would you find unacceptable? What number of accidental falling deaths per year would you find unacceptable? What number of accidental choking deaths per year would you find unacceptable? What number of accidental drowning deaths per year would you find unacceptable? [All of these lead firearms for accidental deaths.](http://downloads.nsc.org/pdf/StateByStateInjuryData.pdf) Unless you think that the National Safety Council is in the pockets of the evil gun lobby? Accidents are, by definition, preventable. Yet with ~300,000,000 million firearms in ~40,000,000 homes, and less than 1,000 accidental firearms deaths per year, I think gun owners are doing pretty good, safety-wise. So why are firearms given disproportionate attention when it comes to accidental deaths? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/105 "2009-04-11T22:20:46Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > What number of automobile accident deaths per year would you find unacceptable? > > What number of accidental poisoning deaths per year would you find unacceptable? > > What number of accidental falling deaths per year would you find unacceptable? > > What number of accidental choking deaths per year would you find unacceptable? > > What number of accidental drowning deaths per year would you find unacceptable? > > [All of these lead firearms for accidental deaths.](http://downloads.nsc.org/pdf/StateByStateInjuryData.pdf) > > Unless you think that the National Safety Council is in the pockets of the evil gun lobby? > > Accidents are, by definition, preventable. Yet with ~300,000,000 million firearms in ~40,000,000 homes, and less than 1,000 accidental firearms deaths per year, I think gun owners are doing pretty good, safety-wise. > > **So why are firearms given disproportionate attention when it comes to accidental deaths?** I’m sure you know the answer (as your question is rhetorical!): politics. Hot button issue. Guns=bad. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/106 "2009-04-11T22:31:43Z")
And I thought we where talking about the 20/20 show. Opps… We where untill the rabid anti-gun folks showed up. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/107 "2009-04-11T23:57:06Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > What number of automobile accident deaths per year… accidental drowning deaths per year would you find unacceptable?.. All very interesting subjects, perhaps we should talk about them sometime. > [@](#): > > …Unless you think that the National Safety Council is in the pockets of the evil gun lobby?.. Huh? > [@](#): > > ..less than 1,000 accidental firearms deaths per year, I think gun owners are doing pretty good, safety-wise… That answers the question. Coulda just said that. So, thousand a year is “pretty good”. Call that C plus, then? Definitely acceptable? So “unacceptable” is somewhere north of there? OK, question answered. > [@](#): > > …So why are firearms given disproportionate attention when it comes to accidental deaths? And who’s to say “disproportionate”? I’m even more firmly against drunk driving, there just isn’t ever a debate on that subject. You want to take the opposite position, we could, I suppose… But far more than that, they are a malign presence in our entire culture. Open your local newspaper to the movie ad page: guns galore, guns a-go-go, hot chicks with guns, slick dudes with guns, Flipper’s got a gun… Maybe a page full of erect throbbing members and bouncing titties wouldn’t be all that great, but it’d be a damn sight more healthy! But as said before and saying again: if they’re that important to you, just keep the goddam things, _muzzle tov_, much good may it do you. Its important, but not that damn important, not to see a huge swath of the population go apeshit. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/108 "2009-04-12T00:03:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Indeed, “defend yourself” is one of a wide variety of possible uses for a gun. My personal favorite is as a seed, bury it somewhere and see if a Smith and Wesson tree sprouts… That works in Narnia. Or at least it did for, like, the first three days Narnia existed. Also it was a Colt, not an S & W, not that it matters much. Anyway, the revolver tree is part of the very sad story about the extinction of the Narnian were-mongoose, a tale Professor Lewis was working on at the time of his assassination. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/109 "2009-04-12T00:11:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > All very interesting subjects, perhaps we should talk about them sometime. > Huh? > That answers the question. Coulda just said that. So, thousand a year is “pretty good”. Call that C plus, then? Definitely acceptable? So “unacceptable” is somewhere north of there? OK, question answered. > And who’s to say “disproportionate”? I’m even more firmly against drunk driving, there just isn’t ever a debate on that subject. You want to take the opposite position, we could, I suppose… > > But far more than that, they are a malign presence in our entire culture. Open your local newspaper to the movie ad page: guns galore, guns a-go-go, hot chicks with guns, slick dudes with guns, Flipper’s got a gun… > > Maybe a page full of erect throbbing members and bouncing titties wouldn’t be all that great, but it’d be a damn sight more healthy! > > But as said before and saying again: if they’re that important to you, just keep the goddam things, _muzzle tov_, much good may it do you. Its important, but not that damn important, not to see a huge swath of the population go apeshit. If the gun had never been invented then yes, I would agree with your position. That isn’t the case. Why is it nutty to want to have the capability to protect yourself, your home, your family members or even your fellow citizens of Country X with the means necessary to do so if it actually came to that? Dude, 13,500 people die in drunk driving accidents every year, an amount that _isn’t changing_ despite MADD, seatbelts, airbags, etcetera. Why isn’t 1,000 deaths amongst a population of hundreds of millions an acceptable figure re: guns? Sure, we’d all prefer it to be zero, but that isn’t reality, is it? FTR, I don’t own a gun and will not as long as I have small children. Risk/reward. But why begrudge those that do so responsibly? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/110 "2009-04-12T00:11:29Z")
> [@](#): > > …the Narnian were-mongoose… Like on a full moon, they run out and pick fights with cobras? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/111 "2009-04-12T00:18:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Like on a full moon, they run out and pick fights with cobras? [hijack] Of course not. That would be silly. Only in the world of Men is the transformation of the were-creature governed by the cycle of the moon. You are SO going to get killed if you ever go to Narnia. You’re just operating on all the wrong assumptions. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/112 "2009-04-12T00:32:26Z")
Dude, Narnia is ridiculous, no way Jesus was a Leo. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/113 "2009-04-12T00:38:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Dude, Narnia is ridiculous, no way Jesus was a Leo. Jesus was SO a cop! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/114 "2009-04-12T00:44:02Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > …Dude, 13,500 people die in drunk driving accidents every year, an amount that _isn’t changing_ despite MADD, seatbelts, airbags, etcetera… So, we should quit trying? Well, is it ok if we don’t? > [@](#): > > …Why isn’t 1,000 deaths amongst a population of hundreds of millions an acceptable figure re: guns?.. 'Acceptable" is your call. > [@](#): > > …Sure, we’d all prefer it to be zero, but that isn’t reality, is it?.. I don’t like something, so I try and change people’s mind about it. I know, kinda weird. But I’ve seen some bad stuff get better because of people trying, and I like that. So, maybe zero is impossible, because of “reality”. But then again, maybe it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/115 "2009-04-12T00:50:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Dude, Narnia is ridiculous, no way Jesus was a Leo. Are you actually \*trying \*to summon **kanicbird** and **Lacunae Quell** to the thread? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/116 "2009-04-12T00:58:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, we should quit trying? Well, is it ok if we don’t? > 'Acceptable" is your call. > I don’t like something, so I try and change people’s mind about it. I know, kinda weird. But I’ve seen some bad stuff get better because of people trying, and I like that. So, maybe zero is impossible, because of “reality”. But then again, maybe it isn’t. …people are going to die before old age strikes them no matter how many precautions we take against health risk “this” or public safety “that”. I am behind you when it comes to minimizing unnecessary and/or preventable death, seriously, no matter the cause, be it guns, drunk driving or whatever. I mean, who likes that? But, I don’t think your stance on guns is realistic, for the multitude of reasons already described. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/117 "2009-04-12T01:06:46Z")
Right. So back to the subject at hand. The OP and the 20/20 episode If I only had a gun As I was saying, I think that the test in the classroom was more than just a set up. The ‘student’ was always in the same seat. The ‘gunman’ knew what target to go for as soon as he entered the classroom. This ‘test’ was interesting, but loaded from the very start. The student never had a chance. The test was designed that he wouldn’t have a chance. I did say that perhaps there is a ‘gun show’ loop hole. Maybe it is too easy to buy a firearm. I’ll be willing to listen to that argument. > [@gonzomax](#): > > Did anyone on this board thing the gun nutters would accept any criticism ? Their response was as predictable as ever. And of course they are being totally fair. The people with questions ,are showing bigotry. What else could it be. > You guys should be embarrassed when one of you claims he is an augmentation for the police. You should tell him that the training they receive puts them in a different level. But it is always a Family Feud response. Good answer,good answer as they clap. > Some day the police will put out an alarm when they have an incident. Calling all gun lovers, we have a dangerous situation and require your abilities to solve it. Bigotry? This is not exactly GD material. Ad homonym attacks and calling people names will not advance your agenda. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/118 "2009-04-12T01:09:13Z")
Your calm civility is a beacon to us all. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/119 "2009-04-12T01:43:18Z")
You find gun nut offensive? I thought it was a badge of honor. Then I apologize for the offense. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/120 "2009-04-12T02:24:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You find gun nut offensive? I thought it was a badge of honor. Then I apologize for the offense. Horseshit. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=7)