# "If I only had a gun": 20/20 on ABC Fri **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645 "2009-04-10T14:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/161 "2009-04-14T03:30:32Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > If it’s a flowering, plant, then of course there will be stamens and pistols 😃 Grooooaaannnnnn… ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/162 "2009-04-14T03:35:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How do those accident rates compare when it’s number of times a car is used vs. number of times a gun is used? I guess it depends on what “used” means concerning guns. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/163 "2009-04-14T03:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Of course they’re not. [/QUOTE] Ok…I’m aware of the event. Now…explain why you think that this is A) representative of most school shootings and B) proves Whitman needed to be a crack shot to do what he did. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/164 "2009-04-14T03:44:59Z")
> [@](#): > > In August 1962, Whitman married Kathleen Frances Leissner, another University of Texas student, in a wedding that was held in Leissner’s hometown of Needville, Texas, and presided over by Fr. Leduc. The following year, he returned to active duty at Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, where he was both promoted to Lance Corporal and involved in an accident in which his Jeep rolled over an embankment. After rescuing his pinned comrade, Whitman was hospitalized for four days.[9] That November, Whitman was court-martialed for gambling, possessing a personal firearm on base, and threatening another Marine over a $30 loan for which Whitman demanded $15 interest. He was sentenced to 30 days of confinement and 90 days of hard labor and was demoted to the rank of Private.[12] Whitman is a bad example to use for a spree shooter who was a “military type.” He did not have “years of experience” and “nerves of steel.” He may have been a Marine but as Marines go he was a horrible Marine. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/165 "2009-04-14T06:07:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Sage Rat** , I would be interested to see similar statistics which, first of all, include countries other than the US, and second, control for population density. On the first score, many developed nations do considerably better than we do with respect to violent crime, and it would be a good idea to understand precisely how they do it, and if we can apply any of the same methods. On the second score, state-by-state comparisons of gun laws vs. violence in the US tend to be contaminated by the fact that the states with the most permissive gun laws also tend to be those with the lowest population density, and one would theoretically expect violent crime per capita to be proportional to population density. The Wikipedia page on “concealed carry” is an article that labels itself “concealed carry in the US”: > **[Concealed carry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry)** > > Concealed carry, or carrying a concealed weapon (CCW), is the practice of carrying a weapon (usually a sidearm such as a handgun), either in proximity to or on one's person in public places in a manner that hides or conceals the weapon's presence from surrounding observers. In the United States, the opposite of concealed carry is called open carry. > While most law enforcement officers carry their handguns in a visible holster, some officers such as plainclothes detectives or undercover agents car... This possibly indicates that the US may be the only nation to have such a thing? (further googling looks like possibly New Zealand does.) If I can get a list of nations, I can do some searches. > [@](#): > > Also, in case you overlooked it, your third quote (the one from Science Direct; incidentally the link is broken) comes to a conclusion that supports the “guns are bad” premise. Yeah, I noticed that later. But I’d rather have people debating actual studies, regardless if they’re on my side or not, than simply wasting thread real estate without any sort of data at all. The pro-CCW side seems to base things on X-law was passed in Y-year and the crime rate did Z within W timespan. While it’s possible that other things could have caused Z at that particular time, it seems a bit unrealistic to say that the same Z happened within W timespan for every place where there was a similar X. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/166 "2009-04-14T06:16:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > While it’s possible that other things could have caused Z at that particular time, it seems a bit unrealistic to say that the same Z happened within W timespan for every place where there was a similar X. …and yet not be caused by X. _missed the edit window_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/167 "2009-04-14T11:35:54Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, if you are owning a gun for the purpose of deterence, then I guess you are using it 24/7/365. > > So, how many minutes is a use? Gee, my car is also available for use 24/7/365. Anyone want to actually try to answer the question? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/168 "2009-04-14T11:38:39Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > I guess it depends on what “used” means concerning guns. You hold the loaded weapon in your hands and pull the trigger with the intent of using it for the purpose for which you think it is intended. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/169 "2009-04-14T13:06:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You hold the loaded weapon in your hands and pull the trigger with the intent of using it for the purpose for which you think it is intended. Considering the deterrence factor, I would add that simply carrying a gun should be considered a use. If one wants to make a case that an armed populace is a deterrence to civil rights abuses, the ownership of guns must also be considered a use. That pretty much makes any comparison useless. ---
**Author:** ![Duhkecco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Duhkecco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duhkecco)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/170 "2009-04-14T13:08:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Gee, my car is also available for use 24/7/365. As long as we are comparing guns with cars, it seems that in most American states, a licence is not required to own and use a gun, but all states require a licence to operate a car. Is that right? Also, I see that each state has a traffic/highway safety department. Is there a comparable department for firearms in each state? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/171 "2009-04-14T13:24:57Z")
Licenses aren’t required to own cars in the US. Nor to drive on private property. The act of licensing is for driving on public roads. Similarly, you can own a gun in most places without a license and use/carry it on your private property, but most places require a license to carry it onto public areas. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/172 "2009-04-14T13:26:37Z")
Also, seeing as we’re discussing cars again, how many deaths from privately-owned vehicle owners going ‘postal’ would it take, before the authorities banned their use by anyone without rigorous training and psychological profiling? And a car is something that is far more useful to society than a gun. It might take more than one incident a day of someone suddenly mowing down pedestrians, but eventually a ban _would_ be considered. How many deaths will gun owners be satisfied with before they’ll accept far greater restrictions on how people ‘defend’ themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/173 "2009-04-14T13:28:51Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Considering the deterrence factor, I would add that simply carrying a gun should be considered a use. If one wants to make a case that an armed populace is a deterrence to civil rights abuses, the ownership of guns must also be considered a use. > > That pretty much makes any comparison useless. And my owning a car relieves me from the worry of figuring out how I’m going to get to work each morning. Comparing hours of usage, _including target practice_(see, I’m actually not being totally unreasonable, folks), how do those accident rates compare when it’s number of times a car is used vs. number of times a gun is used? Look, I can dance this dance for a _loooong_ time, but I’d much rather have a straightforward answer. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/174 "2009-04-14T13:33:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Gee, my car is also available for use 24/7/365. > Anyone want to actually try to answer the question? No, but I tried to subltly tell you what I thought of the intelligence of the question. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/175 "2009-04-14T13:34:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Ok…I’m aware of the event. Now…explain why you think that this is A) representative of most school shootings and B) proves Whitman needed to be a crack shot to do what he did. > > -XT Well, Whitman made some pretty difficult shots from the top of the tower that I doubt I’d be able to duplicate. I’m hardly an expert though but it seems to me that it would be difficult to pull off what Whitman did without being a crack shot. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/176 "2009-04-14T13:39:55Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > No, but I tried to subltly tell you what I thought of the intelligence of the question. I’ve defined usage for the purpose of the question. ---
**Author:** ![auburntiger11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bbe5ce/32.png) [@auburntiger11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auburntiger11)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/177 "2009-04-16T07:36:33Z")
The only problem I saw on this show was when they had a student with a gun in the classroom that showed the inability to properly pull the gun out and get a shot. The student was in-turn shot while trying to do this. The only problem with this demonstration was that only one student was armed. This show was aimed at the question whether or not you would be safer with a gun. In this case only one student had a gun, but what if there were others? The odds in real life of the intruder being able to pick out someone pulling a gun out seems as though it would be pretty low. Unless you are a well trained law inforcement officer as in this case. This is simply not the case with most of these shootings. I did not watch the whole program so I don’t know if they had other situations like this but it doesn’t always happen in a class room as we have seen recently. Say you were in an office or a gas station your odds of getting a shot off are much greater than that of a classroom. If everyone was going to be shot, why not have a gun? why not give yourself and others a chance even if it is small? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/178 "2009-04-16T10:08:57Z")
I didn’t see the show, but others have said that they gave the student a retention holster. This is designed to prevent anyone but the user from drawing the weapon, but there’s a technique to drawing it - you have to do it exactly at a certain angle or you won’t draw smoothly. People practice it hundreds of times to get the motion down, but it sounds like in this case the students didn’t know what they were doing. That hampered a realistic draw time. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/179 "2009-04-16T11:17:55Z")
I didn’t see the 20/20 program but am not remotely surprised by the descriptions of what it portrayed. As has been pointed out in the past by calmer heads it’s not that the media has a liberal bias, it’s that it has a **drama** bias. Which makes for a more exciting program: “If you, a law-abiding citizen, carry a gun, everything will be okay” or “If you, a law-abiding citizen, carry a gun, _you’ll be the first to die_”? (Also, of course, if they show that carrying concealed improves a situation and then someone carrying concealed shoots someone, somebody would sue 20/20. It’s the American way.) Me, I had hoped for something along the lines of a proper school shooting simulation in which the shooter fired randomly, the students didn’t know what to expect, and more than one student had a weapon. Because I’d be genuinely curious to see how many bystanders get taken out by the “can’t shoot for shit” factor. In a relatively clear field of fire defensive use of firearms may be more effective than running away screaming but in a crowded, confused environment you just know that a few bystanders are going to get pegged. I am, however, a little mystified with the suggestion that the student in the scenario should have had the gun easily accessible. Do I really want people to be ready and able to whip out a gun that easily at any time? Even in class? Is that best practice? Another scenario I would have liked to have seen played out: A street scene, with more than one “law-abiding citizens” carrying concealed. There is a loud bang - could be a shot, car backfire, firework, etc. Does the situation escalate? Does Person A draw his weapon, look around, spot Person B who has done the same, assume that Person B has fired a shot (since he’s got a gun out) and start banging away, with Person B doing the same to Person A? Or do they act sensibly? It’d be interesting to see. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645/180 "2009-04-16T12:38:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How do those accident rates compare when it’s number of times a car is used vs. number of times a gun is used? We don’t know. But I’m not letting you and **Hentor** handwave away the facts of reality with a hypothetical supposition, no matter how reasonable it may appear. I’ll allow that _ **if** _ firearms were used at a rate comparable to autos that the numbers _ **may** _ look different. Reality check: ifs, buts, and candied nuts have fuck-all to do with the facts as they stand. You guys bitch and moan about accidental deaths from guns until it’s pointed out to you the 1/2 dozen or more other leading causes of accidental deaths. You then bitch and moan that that’s not a statistically valid comparison because the gun numbers aren’t adjusted for “use.” _Anything_, and I mean _ **any-fucking-thing** _, to get those numbers where you want 'em, eh guys? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-only-had-a-gun-20-20-on-abc-fri/492645.md?page=10)