# If I put something into orbit, do I still own it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394 "2020-04-23T01:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/1 "2020-04-23T01:56:17Z")
As any good crime show will teach you, if I put something in the garbage can outside, I don’t own it any more. So if I launch an unmanned item into space, do I actually have claim to ownership any longer? Haven’t I essentially thrown it away, especially if I have no plans to retrieve it, just let it eventually burn up on reentry? Yep, this question is based on Elon Musk and his planned 40,000 satellite blanket. So could I claim finders keepers, if I could catch one of these satellites while it was still in orbit? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/2 "2020-04-23T02:13:49Z")
I don’t know but I doubt it. International space law seems fairly well established ([International Satellite Law | Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Planetary Science](https://oxfordre.com/planetaryscience/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190647926.001.0001/acrefore-9780190647926-e-39)). Though it does seem like it’s ripe for an update with the increase in space trash hazards and astronomy issues. But even without established law, given their expense, I would think governments are not going to be wanting to fire the first shot in a space grudge match. That wouldn’t be good for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/3 "2020-04-23T02:14:13Z")
IANA inter-galactic space lawyer, but I would expect that if you rooted around Elon’s dumpster you could keep his junk because it was clearly discarded in an area where material is thrown with the intention of not reclaiming it. Exact legal niceties aside, Elon made an overt demonstration of saying he no longer want to possess it because someone is going to take it away on Tuesday morning. There is no implication that an object, lets say a Musk Satellite, that is operating, is feeding data to users on Earth and is realising a commercial return is being discarded, is no longer wanted or being used. There is also a continuing responsibility to make sure it does not cause havoc or contribute to the growing pool of space junk. So, no, its not finders-keepers. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/4 "2020-04-23T02:22:00Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > IANA inter-galactic space lawyer… _audience gasps_ ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/5 "2020-04-23T02:29:55Z")
My specialty is Bird Law, so I suppose that applies to other flying objects. In this case Article VIII of the [Outer Space Treaty](https://2009-2017.state.gov/t/isn/5181.htm) would prevail: > [@](#): > > Article VIII > A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/6 "2020-04-23T11:55:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > My specialty is Bird Law, so I suppose that applies to other flying objects. In this case Article VIII of the [Outer Space Treaty](https://2009-2017.state.gov/t/isn/5181.htm) would prevail: > > > [@](#): > > > > … Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return. I always found that last bit amusing, as if there’s a sign on a bulletin board somewhere reading, “FOUND: one satellite, crashed to Earth in Nebraska. Please call NASA at (202) 358-0001 with a detailed description to reclaim it.” ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/7 "2020-04-23T12:29:53Z")
> [@MikeS](#): > > I always found that last bit amusing, as if there’s a sign on a bulletin board somewhere reading, “FOUND: one satellite, crashed to Earth in Nebraska. Please call NASA at (202) 358-0001 with a detailed description to reclaim it.” Funny, but NASA was pretty insistent that nobody touch their stuff after the space shuttle Columbia disintegrated over Texas in 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/8 "2020-04-23T12:43:55Z")
And with good reason. Spacecraft debris often contains hazardous materials like hydrazine. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/9 "2020-04-23T12:57:10Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > As any good crime show will teach you, if I put something in the garbage can outside, I don’t own it any more. > > So if I launch an unmanned item into space, do I actually have claim to ownership any longer? Haven’t I essentially thrown it away, especially if I have no plans to retrieve it, just let it eventually burn up on reentry? > > Yep, this question is based on Elon Musk and his planned 40,000 satellite blanket. > > So could I claim finders keepers, if I could catch one of these satellites while it was still in orbit? Technically, it belongs to the country who registered the launch. If you live in a country that recognizes private ownership, then the launched item belongs to you. The applies to anything launched into space, including expended stages and ancillary debris. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/10 "2020-04-24T00:09:37Z")
Possession is 9/10ths, right? If I possess it, it’s mine, right? I can climb into my Tom Swift Rocketship, blast into whatever orbit, grab some Musk-sats or Chinese killer-sats or whatever… and keep going, because if I return to Earth, some tedious authority will obstruct me. So I schlep them to my Lunar hideout (RioRicoRama), hack away, add broadcast capacity, and boost them into Lunar polar orbit where they beam messages Earthward: “RioRico Loves You!” appears on every broadcast receiver. Anyone wanting those sats will have to fetch-em themselves. International and space law may include ownership provisions. Enforcing space activity could be tricky. Have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/11 "2020-04-24T01:53:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And with good reason. Spacecraft debris often contains hazardous materials like hydrazine. Even more basically, aside from the toxic shit, crashed debris is evidence. The relevant authorities will want that debris left alone and unmolested, so they can examine everything _in situ_ and then collect the debris to haul off to their forensic labs, to try to figure out what happened. They don’t want anyone messing with the scene. This is not true only for space debris. This goes also for any crashed aircraft. It is illegal to move or alter any crashed aircraft debris until the FAA or NTSB comes for it. (There are some very limited and specific exceptions.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/12 "2020-04-24T01:59:55Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > As any good crime show will teach you, if I put something in the garbage can outside, I don’t own it any more. That doesn’t mean that just anybody can come and grab your trash. Many places (I suspect most or all) have specific laws that any trash you set out at the curb immediately becomes city property. So random trashpickers who rummage through your trash for empty aluminum cans are committing theft. But if police investigators come picking through your trash to see what they can find, that’s allowed, and I don’t suppose any search warrant is needed. If a private investigator comes picking through your trash, that’s seems illegal, but PI’s probably do stuff like that anyway. I don’t know what the law says about trash left in private dumpsters on private property, but I’ll bet we can safely assume that the matter is addressed in the typical city laws. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/13 "2020-04-24T02:07:07Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > That doesn’t mean that just anybody can come and grab your trash. Many places (I suspect most or all) have specific laws that any trash you set out at the curb immediately becomes city property. Never heard of such a thing. Why would a city want more trash? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/14 "2020-04-24T02:15:15Z")
Yeah, as I understood it, the entire concept of “deliberately abandoned property” was that anyone who wanted could take it. Which often happens, for things like furniture, and I’ve never heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/15 "2020-04-24T15:46:38Z")
Satellites, that hundreds of companies launch into space, are not abandoned property. Most of them are controlled and operated by those same companies that paid to have them launched. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/16 "2020-04-24T15:57:15Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Possession is 9/10ths, right? If I possess it, it’s mine, right? No. > [@](#): > > Anyone wanting those sats will have to fetch-em themselves. > > International and space law may include ownership provisions. Enforcing space activity could be tricky. Have fun. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/17 "2020-04-24T19:10:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Never heard of such a thing. Why would a city want more trash? I’ve definitely seen this in some municipal code, but I can’t find it right now. It’s done mainly to support further laws that make it illegal for trashpickers to scavenge through other people’s trash. Upon some quick googling just now, I’m seeing that the idea has been kicked around in the courts a lot. Here’s one article for example: [Whose Garbage Is It Anyway?](https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-1994-05-31-9405310192-story.html) from 1994. In my smallish city, it’s clearly in the municipal code that trash scavenging is illegal. Some of my other remarks are just my interpretation of what it must mean if a city claims ownership of your trash as soon as you put it out by the curb: – That scavenging by random people could be prosecuted as theft; – That investigating your trash by law enforcement would not require any warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/18 "2020-04-25T05:54:47Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Satellites, that hundreds of companies launch into space, are not abandoned property. Most of them are controlled and operated by those same companies that paid to have them launched. But they are controlled and operated in a location that doesn’t belong to that company. On a more down to Earth version… Say I buy 1000 weather balloons, attach a radio transmitter to them and let them go. 10 days later, one gets tangled in a tree, on private property, 100 miles away. Do I still own the balloon and the transmitter? ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/19 "2020-04-25T08:50:18Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Say I buy 1000 weather balloons, attach a radio transmitter to them and let them go. 10 days later, one gets tangled in a tree, on private property, 100 miles away. Do I still own the balloon and the transmitter? IANAL but I would attach a tag saying PROPERTY OF RIORICO and offering a reward for its return. If I didn’t care, the tag might read HAVE FUN WITH THIS. ETA: We lived in the border mining town Bisbee Arizona, a century or so ago the biggest city between New Orleans and San Francisco. 40% of the homes in Old Bisbee are on stairways, not streets, so the city has free trash dumpsters all over. Anything left out or in the dumpsters before Wednesday, trash day, is free for the taking. _Assemblage_ artists abound in what’s now an art town. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394/20 "2020-04-25T11:28:46Z")
A trucking company’s fleet is also operated in a location that doesn’t belong to the trucking company. They’re still not abandoned. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-i-put-something-into-orbit-do-i-still-own-it/852394.md?page=2)