# If I'm an innocent bystander watching a fight, but I yell "Kill him!" as a joke but the person actually dies, am I liable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 21, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574 "2022-06-21T18:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/1 "2022-06-21T18:48:21Z")
Picture a stereotypical street fight between two parties. A large crowd forms around the fight to watch. I don’t know anybody involved in this I just passed by and decided to watch. During the fight as a joke I yell KILL HIM, but then soon enough one fighter actually kills the other one. Once police show up and take witness statements and somebody mentions right before the fatal blow someone in the crowd yelled KILL HIM, could the police track me down and arrest me for a crime? Incitement? Threats? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/2 "2022-06-21T19:06:36Z")
It seems the answer to this is…maybe. Hope you have a good lawyer defending you. It is not clear that you can easily walk away from doing this as suggested in the OP. > **[Incitement to Imminent Lawless Action](https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/970/incitement-to-imminent-lawless-action)** > > Many Supreme Court cases upholding restrictions on subversive speech have relied on the idea that such speech is forbidden because it incites violence or illegal actions. > **[18 U.S. Code § 373 - Solicitation to commit a crime of violence](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/373)** (that second one I really need an attorney to decipher) ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2022, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/3 "2022-06-21T20:18:12Z")
There’s this case “Let him have it”: > **[Derek Bentley case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bentley_case)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > Derek William Bentley (30 June 1933 – 28 January 1953) was a British man who was hanged for the murder of a policeman during a burglary attempt. Christopher Craig, then aged 16, a friend and accomplice of Bentley, was accused of the murder. Bentley was convicted as a party to the crime, by the English law principle of common purpose, "joint enterprise", as the burglary had been committed in mutual understanding and bringing deadly weapons. The o... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/4 "2022-06-22T01:04:44Z")
Could you explain how yelling “Kill him!” while a fight occurs in front of you is funny? I think you would be in serious trouble because nobody would believe it was a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/5 "2022-06-22T01:45:16Z")
Traditionally, encouraging another to commit a crime is called “solicitation”. (If solicitation results in an agreement, it becomes “conspiracy”). For example, in Florida, the statutes say, in pertinent part > [@](#): > > A person who solicits another to commit an offense prohibited by law and in the course of such solicitation commands, encourages, hires, or requests another person to engage in specific conduct which would constitute such offense or an attempt to commit such offense commits the offense of criminal solicitation… > > If the offense attempted, solicited, or conspired to is a capital felony, the offense of criminal attempt, criminal solicitation, or criminal conspiracy is a felony of the first degree (The defense, of course, is that the OP’s encouragement was incidental to the attack - he didn’t actually cause it to start, and his cheering didn’t cause it to escalate) Interestingly enough, in response to widespread protests during the last year of the Trump administration, the state of Florida passed a law with enhanced punishments for rioting and inciting violence. Since a riot is defined as three or more people, and results in injury to “another person”, is it possible that the OP would be the third person making up this “riot”, and would the injury of the other participant count as “another person”? (I think the “other person” arguably refers to somebody not involved in this 3 person riot, meaning an innocent bystander) > [@](#): > > A person commits a riot if he or she willfully participates in a violent public disturbance involving an assembly of three or more persons, acting with a common intent to assist each other in violent and disorderly conduct, resulting in: > > (a) Injury to another person; > > (b) Damage to property; or > > (c) Imminent danger of injury to another person or damage to property… > > A person commits inciting a riot if he or she willfully incites another person to participate in a riot, resulting in a riot or imminent danger of a riot. A person who commits inciting a riot commits a felony of the third degree [http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App\_mode=Display\_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0870/Sections/0870.01.html](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0870/Sections/0870.01.html) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/6 "2022-06-22T01:55:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Could you explain how yelling “Kill him!” while a fight occurs in front of you is funny? > > I think you would be in serious trouble because nobody would believe it was a joke. ⁢ Joke isn’t the right word, but there is this sort of thing were people exaggerate for effect. Though I would associate that more with something more over the top, like “murder him” or even things like “destroy him” or “mutilate him.” But, still, I’ve heard people use “kill” as hyperbole. I myself stay away from that sort of talk for precisely the ideas mentioned here, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/7 "2022-06-22T07:39:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Could you explain how yelling “Kill him!” while a fight occurs in front of you is funny? > > I think you would be in serious trouble because nobody would believe it was a joke. Surely you can imagine some sort of context where it would be intended as a joke? You’re outside a bar, everyone is a bit drunk. It was a lot of fun attending a Mortal Kombat themed party. Two guys face off in the car park and start sparring; it doesn’t look serious at all. Even though there isn’t really a fight yet, you yell “FINISH HIM!”. Everyone chuckles. That’s the thing from the thing. One of the guys immediately lunges at the other and gets him in a headlock, which breaks his neck and kills him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/8 "2022-06-22T07:46:08Z")
Never was much of a “Lets you and him fight for my amusement!” kind of dude, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/9 "2022-06-22T07:59:14Z")
Real life story. Once, when I was a young man, I was saying goodbye to a friend of mine and his girlfriend. They were leaving on a motorcycle with his girlfriend on the back. As a joke, I said the following; Me: Bye, y’all be careful out there. Me: Actually Justin, I don’t care if you kill yourself, just make sure Alexis (his gf) don’t get hurt. Them: ha ha! And two days later Justin was killed in a motorcycle accident. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/10 "2022-06-22T09:03:32Z")
In my state it would be a crime: Section 939.05 - Parties to crime **(c)** Is a party to a conspiracy with another to commit it or **advises** , hires, **counsels** or otherwise procures another to commit it. This was a subject to an in-service training we had about 4 years ago. There was a case where a guy at a party told another guy that a girl he liked was in a bedroom passed out and he should have sex with her before she wakes up. Both ended up being convicted of sexual assault and party to a crime sexual assault and the convictions stood up on appeal. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/11 "2022-06-22T10:31:30Z")
so that’s why when I yelled kill the umpire after he blew an obvious call I got funny looks … ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/12 "2022-06-22T15:11:57Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Surely you can imagine some sort of context where it would be intended as a joke? Possibly, but you described horsing around, not a fight. A fight is when people want to cause serious harm to each other. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/13 "2022-06-22T18:23:40Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > so that’s why when I yelled kill the umpire after he blew an obvious call I got funny looks … Considering that “Kill the Umpire” is considered a common expression, I wonder if anyone is liable for the death of umpire John McSherry in 1996 > **[The Tragic Death of Umpire John McSherry Marred MLB’s Opening Day](https://www.sportscasting.com/the-tragic-death-of-mlb-umpire-john-mcsherry-marred-mlbs-opening-day/)** > > National League ump John McSherry collapsed and died on opening day in CIncinnati on April 1, 1996. > **[Today in Baseball History: Umpire John McSherry dies after collapsing on the...](https://www.nbcsports.com/mlb/news/today-in-baseball-history-umpire-john-mcsherry-dies-after-collapsing-on-the-field)** > > Opening Day, 1996, at Riverfront Stadium in Cincinnati ended in tragedy after just seven pitches. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/14 "2022-06-22T19:36:22Z")
wow he was one of Ron Luciano’s crew back in the day ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/15 "2022-06-22T20:09:07Z")
[Moderating] While “joke” might not be the right word, I think we can nonetheless imagine situations where a shout to “kill” someone might not be meant in earnest. Let’s proceed from the assumption that the OP is talking about such a situation, without quibbling whether “joke” is the right word. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/16 "2022-06-22T20:44:14Z")
OK, so imagine a scenario where there is a fight, but it is interpreted as ‘horsing around’ by the bystander who yells out the joking instruction to kill. I mean, are you saying it’s impossible to happen? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/17 "2022-06-22T20:53:38Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > could the police track me down and arrest me for a crime? What jurisdiction? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-an-innocent-bystander-watching-a-fight-but-i-yell-kill-him-as-a-joke-but-the-person-actually-dies-am-i-liable/966574/18 "2022-06-22T21:37:18Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Interestingly enough, in response to widespread protests during the last year of the Trump administration, the state of Florida passed a law with enhanced punishments for rioting and inciting violence. > > Since a riot is defined as three or more people, and results in injury to “another person”, is it possible that the OP would be the third person making up this “riot”, and would the injury of the other participant count as “another person”? That particular law is subject to a statewide preliminary injunction since September or October. But the _definition_ of “riot” hasn’t substantively changed since the Supreme Court of Florida used the common law definition in _State v. Beasely_, 317 So. 2d 750 (1975). > The term “riot” is not defined in the statute and, therefore, the common law definition must be applied. Fields v. State, 85 So.2d 609 (Fla. 1956); Smith v. State, 80 Fla. 315, 85 So. 911; See 77 C.J.S. Riot § 1 a, pp. 421-422. The term “riot” at common law is defined as a tumultuous disturbance of the peace by three or more persons, assembled and acting with a common intent, either in executing a lawful private enterprise in a violent and turbulent manner, to the terror of the people, or in executing an unlawful enterprise in a violent and turbulent manner. 1 Hawkins on Pleas of the Crown 513 (8th Ed. 1824); Ballantine’s Law Dictionary 1121 (3d Ed. 1969); Black’s Law Dictionary 1490 (4th Ed. 1968); Salem Manufacturing Company v. First American Fire Insurance Company, 111 F.2d 797 (9th Cir. 1940). ~Max