# If I'm unemployed, should I vote for Romney? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 5, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745 "2012-09-05T13:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/21 "2012-09-05T14:42:54Z")
Look, I don’t expect Obama to personally call me and get me placed in a school. The point I am making is that if the idea is that those who found jobs should vote for Obama because his plan worked for them, then what should the un(der)employed do since obviously the plan hasn’t worked for us. Why not vote Romney in an effort to open up more public/private sector jobs and get unemployment under 8% or even 7% In other words, why should we subscribe to: if you have a job vote Obama because his plan works. if you don’t have a job, vote Obama because his plan will work (just give it more time) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/22 "2012-09-05T14:44:26Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > And this… I’m just processing this, that you actually ARE a teacher? You do know that teachers are public enemy #1 to hear the Republicans tell it, right? yep I also know Obama has been promising an army of teachers since 2008 and the number of teaching jobs has gone down since then so to be honest, the Dems are not our friends either right now. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/23 "2012-09-05T14:49:00Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > yep > I also know Obama has been promising an army of teachers since 2008 and the number of teaching jobs has gone down since then so to be honest, the Dems are not our friends either right now. That’s not mostly the Dems doing that, that the (R)s trying to shrink the government by cutting taxes… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/24 "2012-09-05T14:51:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Romney couldn’t do worse and may do better. My default response to statements like this is: Never say “[new guy] couldn’t do worse”. History has a habit of proving such statements wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/25 "2012-09-05T14:56:01Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And when I say he can’t do worse, that would be speaking for the 8.3% of us out of work. For me personally in the voting booth, what could Romney do that is worse than me not having a job? He would bring back the Bush economic policies (on steroids, as Bill Clinton says) and put that unemployement figure over 10% forever. Not to mention start a war with Iran and possibly Syria, plus dramatically increase tension with Russia. Depression + crushing debt + endless war, but rest assured he’ll cut taxes for the wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/26 "2012-09-05T15:04:59Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So what I’m getting from this is ignore all of the people out of work (and I am a teacher and gave that as my example but my question extends to ALL unemployed/underemployed Americans) because Romney may do crazy things to put more Americans out of work? And these assertions are backed up by what? Backed up by simple economics. Most of the sluggish job growth in the past year have been due to job cuts in the public sector (cite provided on request); the private sector has been doing relativly well and even manufacturing has had good job growth (again, cite provided on request). If the Republicans have their way in reducing the size of government this will most likely continue, why would it not? This coupled with the desire to slash the social safety net will probably make life harder for people like you. Finally, just from a pragmatic point of view, the Republican party fiscal policy is unwise. I believe and agree with the Republicans we need to reduce spending and overhaul entitlement spending, but cutting taxes in a time of record deficits is completely insane. You should only cut taxes when running a surplus. So let’s reform social security, reform and ration Medicare, and cut defense spending and then we can talk about cutting taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/27 "2012-09-05T15:12:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So if the argument is that for at least 8% and arguably 25% of the workforce, Obama’s policies havn’t worked, then why shouldn’t we vote for Romney and try something different? … Romney couldn’t do worse and may do better. **Saint Cad** , I would like to ask you about your thinking here. It seems like your argument is simply, Obama’s way hasn’t worked, therefore, some other idea has got to stand an even chance of making things better. In other words, it sounds like there’s nothing specific that Romney has said that makes you think that he has a much better plan than Obama, just that it is time to try something new. Am I close to the target here? If so, let me ask you about Ron Paul. He wants to put the US on the gold standard, pretty much eliminate our banking system as we know it, privatize nearly all government benefits, dramatically slash the size of government, eliminate the Department of Education and several other agencies, and do lots of other controversial stuff. It is a much different approach to government than Obama has taken. If Ron Paul had been the Republican nominee instead of Mitt Romney, do you think you would be thinking the same thing: we’ve tried it Obama’s way, the results weren’t good; Ron Paul can’t do any worse? (BTW: I don’t intend to beat you over the head about my views on who you should vote for. I’m curious how you see this election, and I have a few responses, but you should make up your own mind who to vote for.) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/28 "2012-09-05T15:12:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > yep > I also know Obama has been promising an army of teachers since 2008 and the number of teaching jobs has gone down since then so to be honest, the Dems are not our friends either right now. Yes, he has tried and has been failing, but that is the fault of the Republican legislature and state governments, not the President. We have calls from Republicans country wide and in every state to cut spending, cut taxes, borrow less, etc… is it any wonder that teacher rolls are being cut? How can Obama create an army of teachers in this environment? He has repeatadly called for job bills that would give aid to states so they can hire teachers and avoid state layoffs with the Republicans stonewalling him at every opportunity. I do not see how you can fairly lay this at the feet of the Democratic party. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/29 "2012-09-05T15:26:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So what I’m getting from this is ignore all of the people out of work (and I am a teacher and gave that as my example but my question extends to ALL unemployed/underemployed Americans) because Romney may do crazy things to put more Americans out of work? And these assertions are backed up by what? > > And when I say he can’t do worse, that would be speaking for the 8.3% of us out of work. For me personally in the voting booth, what could Romney do that is worse than me not having a job? Since he apparently thinks running the country is analogous to running a business, he sees you as either an employee, or as a capital asset. So if he sees you as an employee, he’ll probably try to find a way to fire you from being an American, on account of you’re sucking up company resources without producing any revenue. OTOH, if he sees you as a capital asset, he’ll probably try to find a way to sell you off to some other business, who will try to make something useful out of you, most likely by liquidating your component parts. What’s that you say? _“What if he sees you as a shareholder?”_ C’mon, now you’re just getting into _CRAZY_ territory. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/30 "2012-09-05T15:44:33Z")
It sounds like Saint Cad is in a dead end profession. If he’s better than 90% of applicants as claimed and still cannot find a job, then it is time to either find a new profession or open your own school so that you will always have work. Based on your post, schools appear to be fully staffed and the children adequately educated with the number of teachers currently employed. Redundant people need to get over it and move on to a new occupation in a field that does have demand. That’s just the way the Free Market works. (Blessed be the Job Creators) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/31 "2012-09-05T15:50:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Because for every job opening in No Colorado, there are about 100 teachers applying for it. Unemployment is still at 8.3% [Underemployment is over 17%](http://www.gallup.com/poll/125639/gallup-daily-workforce.aspx). That means that there is over a quarter of the workforce that is making less than they should. Clearly Obama’s policies have not worked for them. It’s not Obama’s policies that have not worked for them. State government jobs, like teaching, are still suffering from high unemployment because of _state_ policies. Obama has managed to keep federal spending high, so places with lots of federal jobs have less unemployment. State governments, on the other hand, have instead followed austerity measures, cut funding, cut state jobs, resulting in high unemployment. So you would be better off if the state government had followed Obama’s policies. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/32 "2012-09-05T15:52:55Z")
**Saint Cad** it is unfortunate that you do not have a job, but the fact is that Obama’s policies are working, albeit at steady, if not stellar pace. It is easy to forget how awful the economy was when he took over. The economy lost 4.6 million private sector jobs between November 2008 and April 2009. Since that time we have gained 2.6 million of them back. And if I am not even making look as good as I could. From the peak of Private employment in January 2008 to 18 months later the economy lost 8.2 million private sector jobs. Since then it has gained back 3.9 million. Source: [BLS](http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost) Yes, we still have a ways to go to get to where we were, but employment lags a recovery and other economic indicators are up. So do we really want to change everything up when the direction is positive? Now I know public sector employment is still down, but the idea that the Republican candidates will do more for public sector employment is hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/33 "2012-09-05T16:01:00Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Unemployment is still at 8.3% [Underemployment is over 17%](http://www.gallup.com/poll/125639/gallup-daily-workforce.aspx). That means that there is over a quarter of the workforce I’m not understanding this math. I thought the unemployment rate (U3?) was a sub-set of the under-employed rate (U6?). > [@](#): > > That means that there is over a quarter of the workforce that is making less than they **should.** In a Free Market, you SHOULD make what the market is willing to pay. So for 8% of the people, the market is not willing to pay anything at all. And for 17% of the people, the market is not willing to pay **what they want**. Under the GOP’s promised smaller government, federal funding will be done away with and if states don’t have the money, that’s because the citizens of those states have decided that they’re not interested in paying to educate their off-spring. Why should the Federal Government interfere? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/34 "2012-09-05T16:11:42Z")
I knew I wasn’t crazy… we [already did this thread nearly 6 months ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=647949), albeit a slightly spicier version of it. Saint Cad, what’s changed since now and then that makes your premise seem less dubious than the last time we did 3 pages of debunking on it? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/35 "2012-09-05T16:20:44Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And these assertions are backed up by what? How about Romney himself specifically saying that he opposes efforts to help hire more teachers, police officers and firefighters. [http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/\_news/2012/06/08/12128010-romney-calls-for-fewer-cops-firefighters-and-teachers?lite](http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/06/08/12128010-romney-calls-for-fewer-cops-firefighters-and-teachers?lite) And you keep calling out Obama for failing to deliver an “army of teachers.”. His American Jobs Act would have supported 400,000 teaching jobs. Guess who oppposed it and why it isn’t law right now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/36 "2012-09-05T16:56:39Z")
Firstly, I hope you wouldn’t vote for a guy who assured you a job if you thought his policies were bad for the country as a whole. So let’s get rid of that option right away. Which brings us to the simple fact that you should vote for the guy whose policies you think are best for the country as a whole. Maybe that’s too much to ask, but I would hope most people think that way. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/37 "2012-09-05T17:31:22Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > yep > I also know Obama has been promising an army of teachers since 2008 and the number of teaching jobs has gone down since then so to be honest, the Dems are not our friends either right now. You’re drowning and complaining that the guy trying to save you isn’t stronger than the guy pushing you under. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/38 "2012-09-05T17:42:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You’re drowning and complaining that the guy trying to save you isn’t stronger than the guy pushing you under. Wonderful analogy. I wish I’d thought of it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/39 "2012-09-05T17:44:57Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So if the argument is that for at least 8% and arguably 25% of the workforce, Obama’s policies havn’t worked, then why shouldn’t we vote for Romney and try something different? Do you believe we have never tried Romney’s plan before? Do you really not know how it will turn out? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745/40 "2012-09-05T18:05:04Z")
Your conclusion makes perfect sense, if you have no capacity for abstract thought. For those who can think abstractly, if he can lower the unemployment rate, that is a good thing even if it does not directly benefit you. Romney has no guarantee of being able to do a better or even comparable job improving employment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-unemployed-should-i-vote-for-romney/633745.md?page=3)