# If Israel Kills Arafat, What Next? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619 "2003-09-14T21:31:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/21 "2003-09-15T05:04:26Z")
**Captain Amazing** said…" Plus, most of the aid we give to Israel goes to buy American goods (and has to, as part of the aid package). So, we’re supporting American industry with the aid packages." Yeah **Captain** , so that makes it bad? What, for God’s sake, is your point? Only simple minded people react on a single point. Like, for example, **sucide bombers** , who blow up innocent women and children because they are told it is\*\* Allah\*\*'s will. **Arafat** is a lying bastard who has no concern for peace. He has impeded any resolution of the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians for the last twenty years. So what, for God’s sake, \*\* Captain\*\*, is your point? ---
**Author:** ![FairDink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ed8c4c/32.png) [@FairDink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairDink)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/22 "2003-09-15T05:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zenster_ > Killing him may not improve chances for reconciliation, but it will remove an important cog in the Palestinian terror network. With the recent wounding of Hamas founder Yassin, Israel is sending an unmistakable message to all terror leaders that their days are numbered. Let me put it another way, which is kind of silly i guess. Everyone knows smoking is bad for you. If someone was to suddenly abbolish all cigarettes - overnight - many smokers would be unhappy, but decide to take on the change. Some non-smokers would just think it rediculous to do such a thing (rights and all that). Most would probably celebrate whlie plenty would be furious and, since they would be killing themselves anyway, would find some other reason to kill themselveves.:dubious: The trick is to make everyone realize how bad it is for you, but, more importantly, somehow make them want to make the change. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/23 "2003-09-15T05:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by glee \* > Translation: Let’s murder somone… No, not “someone.” Arafat is not just anyone, this scum bag (regardless of being elected by his people) has helped to plot the deaths of more Israelis than just about anyone else. > [@](#): > > If you can’t murder the elected leader of a nation, who can you kill? See above, in this case the leader is also a criminal. > [@](#): > > What evidence have you got that if you kill the leaders of a group that the group will instantly disband, and nobody will takeover? Where did I mention that Hamas or the al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade would “instantly disband?” Those are your own words, not mine. > [@](#): > > Could you also explain why the Israeli cabinet can kill people legally? My own personal belief is that Arafat is a war criminal. While that does not dictate international law, I’m rather confident more than a few Israelis in power concur with my view. > [@](#): > > What is your definition of a terrorist organisation? One that purposefully employs homicide bombers against another nation is a good start. If you wish to equate Israel and Palestinian tactics, do it on your own time. This thread is about Arafat and his potential removal by force or killing. > [@](#): > > So if an organisation keeps killing the current US President, the US would surrender? I don’t recall suggesting that Palestine “would surrender,” please confine your questions to the topic at hand. > [@](#): > > You don’t think someone else would step up, and use more violence in return? Quite possibly, in fact I would fully expect a short-term backlash. I would also expect a lot of terrorist leaders to get the message that they conspire at peril of their lives. > [@](#): > > And would it galvanise the US population? That is your own question, I mentioned galvanizing the Palestinian population. In a post 9-11 America, tolerance for such an obstructionist thug as Arafat is probably pretty minimal. I’d venture that many ordinary Americans would be pretty sympathetic about Israel’s actions. > [@](#): > > Why should the Palestinians be any different in their love for their country? One more time. Who has said that they are? They just happen to have a leader who has repeatedly broken significant laws (murder) in another country (Israel) and is facing some sort of prosecution, be it legal or military. > [@](#): > > Do you think the Palestinians are queuing up for peace, but that Arafat is holding them back? In some respects, the answer is most definitely, yes. I know that Arafat also enjoys deep support in some sectors. I am equally sure there is a much less vocal (and rather repressed) portion of the Palestinian people who are bloody well sick of the endless cycle of death and want those who encourage it thrown out. > [@](#): > > What signal does murdering him send? Feel free to call it murder. If America’s president had repeatedly plotted the murder of foreign civilians (only) and routinely accomplished it with dynamite laden teenagers, I’d fully expect to see him get capped and might enjoy it too. The big signal is that those who plot terrorism die. I think it’s a great signal to send when you’re dealing with thugs who hold no respect for human life. Not all causes continue to flourish as you erode the most significant portions of their power base. I do not know if the Middle East crisis will benefit from Arafat’s extermination. What I do know is that it could not get much worse and Arafat needs to be sent to the showers. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/24 "2003-09-15T06:16:01Z")
> [@](#): > > One that purposefully employs homicide bombers against another nation is a good start. Don’t you mean suicide bomber? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/25 "2003-09-15T06:57:12Z")
My take: 1. Israel threatens to murder Arafat 2. Palestinians get angry and violent, looking bad in the eyes of the world. This anger and violence appears to “justify” Israel’s original threat, making Israel appear reasonable, not murderous/aggressive 3. Israel withdraws threat to murder Arafat - ends up looking doubly “good” - by not murdering someone they spin it that they’re saving and tolerating him, an appearance enhanced all the more by the contrast with and proximity to the increased Palestinian anger that that murder threat had directly provoked A sick game. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/26 "2003-09-15T07:15:22Z")
Just as a bit of historical trivia, but would someone be so kind as to give a factual account of Yassir Arafat surviving an airliner crash circa 1991? I recall that he was quite justified in referring to himself as one the luckiest bastards alive. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/27 "2003-09-15T07:17:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > **See above, in this case the leader is also a criminal.** Proof? Where is the **trial**? Since when is government allowed to kill somebody without a proper trial? I can’t believe nobody protests. This is an executation, an assasination. Shouldn’t there be some trial? Even the USSR had these dummy trials to some kind of “legalize” their executations… ?? ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/28 "2003-09-15T08:01:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > Just as a bit of historical trivia, but would someone be so kind as to give a factual account of Yassir Arafat surviving an airliner crash circa 1991? > > I recall that he was quite justified in referring to himself as one the luckiest bastards alive. This did actually happen. It was a miraculous bit of survival on Arafat’s part. Many of his critics have said that in his entire lifetime this was, in fact, his first close shave. There were amazing similarities with the Lockerbie flight about dates and flight numbers. I tried googling the terms “Arafat,” “Airliner” and “Crash.” This is what I got: > [@](#): > > “Searched the web for arafat airliner crash. Results 331 - 340 of about **3,780**. Search took 0.66 seconds.” [SUP]EMPHASIS ADDED[/sup] Looks like he’s been associated with a few airliner crashes. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/29 "2003-09-15T08:16:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Searched the web for sharon airliner crash Results 1 - 10 of about 3,730. > [@](#): > > Searched the web for blair airliner crash Results 1 - 10 of about 4,500. > [@](#): > > Searched the web for bush airliner crash Results 1 - 10 of about 20,900. I have no point. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/30 "2003-09-15T08:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*Looks like he’s been associated with a few airliner crashes. \*\* No, it only looks as you don’t know how Google searches the web. You also get pages with airliner crashes only, w/o Arafat. In fact, most pages or all might lack Arafat. A small Google Crash course: If you **require** a term in the result set (as Arafat in this case), you need to preceed it with a plus. The correct version is +Arafat +“airliner crash” which returns 169 pages However, +Blair +“airliner crash” returns 243 pages +Bush +“airliner crash” returns 1260 pages Another lesson we might learn from the web: The fact that two terms are on the **same web page** does **not** mean that they are in any way **related**. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/31 "2003-09-15T09:22:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Where is the trial? Since when is government allowed to kill somebody without a proper trial? Oh come on. In the real world this happens all the time. US missile attack on hospital grounds to ‘eliminate’ Ghaddaffi, 1986. US invasion of Afghanistan with stated goal of killing Hussein, 2003. Numerous US assassination attempts, both planned and executed but ailed, directed at Castro, 1960-???. The US, and every other nation on Earth, has repeatedly and routinely utilised assassination of heads of state as an alternative to direct, full scale warfare. > [@](#): > > The big signal is that those who plot terrorism die. Of course there is a problem, terrorism in this context is just the latest version of communism or witchcraft. It’s undefined, undefinable but unambiguously evil. Every month Israeli soldiers move into civilian areas and destroy the homes and businesses of innocent civilians on the grounds that they share genetic material with a Palestinian ‘terrorist’. Israel has repeatedly and deliberately attacked and killed Palestinian police officers. Not soldiers, civilians. I could go on. Yet somehow that is not terrorism. The trouble is that both sides are small minded, primitive barbarians willing to utilise whatever means are necessary to get what they desire. That includes killing innocent civilians when they deem that it will be too difficult or costly to eliminate the enemy in other ways. If Arafat is a terrorist for killing Israeli civilians then Charon is a terrorist for killing Palestinian civilians. And let us not forget here that the Israeli state is founded upon acts of terrorism that targetted innocent civilians in order to drive the occupier from ‘their land’. That included attacks on US and British property and civilians _after_ the state of Israel had been established. Precisely the same tactics the Palestinians now utilise. The evidence for the utilisation of terrorism, both past and present, covert and overt, by the Israeli state and members of the Israeli government is at least as compelling as that against the Palestinian ‘state’ and leadership. If we are going to start killing those who have plotted or are plotting terrorism, and I’m not saying that is a bad thing, then we will need to target a sizable fraction of the Israeli government as well as Arafat. Perhaps that is the solution. ‘Remove’ the elected governments of both sides, neither of which seem interested in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/32 "2003-09-15T09:25:51Z")
Oops. Try “US invasion of _Iraq_ with stated goal of killing Hussein, 2003”. Of course the US did invade Afghanistan with the aim of killing bin Laden withour a trial, but he isn’t a head of state. If we start a list of US assasinations of non heads of state without trial then we will be here forever. Provided they are powrful enough governments clearly can kill people without trial. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/33 "2003-09-15T10:52:25Z")
Thanks Zenster. For some reason, I can’t help remembering there was something of a hush up attached to that particular incident. Don’t know why my memory banks recall such a thing, but it was a weird thing to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/34 "2003-09-15T11:53:00Z")
Why all this bland acceptance of Arafat’s legitimacy as “President”. There haven’t been any elections in the Palestinian sectors of the “Holy Land” since 1996. Was Arafat elected President for life? As for those elections, they were run so crookedly that only people with the intelligence of that exceedingly anile former US President, Jimmy Carter, consider the elections to have been conducted in a legitimate manner. Other observers had a different take on the farce: > [@](#): > > Former CIA director Jim Woolsey dismisses claims that Arafat was democratically elected, quipping, “Arafat was essentially elected the same way Stalin was, but not nearly as democratically as Hitler, who at least had actual opponents.” > Given that potential opponents were intimidated or bribed to drop out of races, Arafat dominated television airtime, and there was only token opposition in the campaign for chairman, the natural assumption would be that the international observers would expose the election for the sham that it was. That assumption would be sadly mistaken. That was from a June 2002 article: [Link](http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/comment-mowbray042502.asp) As far as the killing of Arafat is concerned, has the Israeli Cabinet itself expressed this as official government policy and a serious objective? So far, all that has appeared is speculation in the media, starting with an editorial in an Israeli paper some days ago. Even if Arafat died tomorrow, most likely of natural causes considering his age, the anger and hatred in the so called “Arab Street” directed towards the Jews and Crusaders would remain at about the same level of high intensity. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/35 "2003-09-15T12:01:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alan Owes Bess \* > **Why all this bland acceptance of Arafat’s legitimacy as “President”.** Is it legitimate to kill a president without trial, but ok to kill a “normal” citizen? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alan Owes Bess \*\*\* > So far, all that has appeared is speculation in the media, starting with an editorial in an Israeli paper some days ago. > \*\* Apparently it is not just the media: [http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1042090,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1042090,00.html) Apparently, the government of a democratic country discusses the assassination of a political opponent. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/36 "2003-09-15T13:08:21Z")
I thought it was obvious that I was refering to Arafat’s legitimacy as “President” not as a “target”. The statement of an Israeli Deputy Prime Minister, as reported in the newspaper to which you linked, no more establishes government policy than an extemporaneous statement by a Prime Minister does. A Deputy PM is only one member of a committee and until such time that a majority of a committee declares itself on a particular policy, then there is no official government policy on a particular matter. This is unlike a presidential system where a President has real political power, such as the USA, France, and almost every comic opera South American country. As you are no doubt aware, the President of Israel has mainly ceremonial power and I have not factored him in for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/37 "2003-09-15T13:20:32Z")
Can anyone tell me when Arafat was elected? Who did he run against? What were the results? When does his term end? When are new elections due? Is he a civilian or a military officer, and if the former, why the uniform? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/38 "2003-09-15T13:30:39Z")
1996, it was declared ‘fair and open’ by interantional observers) IIRC there was only one other candidate, a women IIRC ~90% Arafat cancelled elections last year due to the Israeli curfew (to be fair at this time the curfew did make elections impossible), but has shown lethargy in re-scheudling them which is a sign of his autocratic tendnecies (I’m not sure what the baring the appoinment of prime minster has on this, but it’s likely that the US and Israel do not want new elections either as they would probably just return Arafat in a stronger postion). The PA is a civilian authority not a military one, the uniform is something he has worn for many years. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/39 "2003-09-15T13:39:28Z")
Hard to believe that Arafat was awarded The Nobel Peace Prize in 1984 isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619/40 "2003-09-15T13:56:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alan Owes Bess \* > \*\*A Deputy PM is only one member of a committee and until such time that a majority of a committee declares itself on a particular policy, then there is no official government policy on a particular matter. > \*\* You may, of course, formulate it as you want. I never talked about a government “policy”. Fact is, however, members of the government discuss the assassination of a political opponent. If the deputy PM is not “enough” for you, how about the defense minister? [Kill Arafat says Israeli defence minister](http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/content_objectid=13395470_method=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Kill-Arafat-says-Israeli-defence-minister-name_page.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-kills-arafat-what-next/201619.md?page=3)