# If Israel was decimated, terrorism would still exist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284 "2004-09-21T06:40:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/41 "2004-09-27T05:43:10Z")
I will avoid responding to your immature, childish “name calling”. However, your response of working with the United Nations suggests that you are not well read…or much to naive to understand and deal with this problem…Me thinks that you would rather avoid dealing with the problem by letting others fight your wars. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/42 "2004-10-08T13:20:35Z")
> [@MadSam](#): > > I will avoid responding to your immature, childish “name calling”. Too late - you already have. But …yeah sorry about the ‘Mad I am’ quip - couldn’t resist. > [@MadSam](#): > > However, your response of working with the United Nations suggests that you are not well read…or much to naive to understand and deal with this problem… **Mad** - I do not understand. Please enlighten me. You do not think having a coordinated international effort against fighting terrorism is a good idea, as opposed to invading a country that presents negligible risk (i.e. Iraq). > [@MadSam](#): > > Me thinks that you would rather avoid dealing with the problem by letting others fight your wars. Again can you expand on this please. What are my wars? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/43 "2004-10-08T15:49:22Z")
> [@MadSam](#): > > Your last message is far off the topic at hand. If you want to see the gruesome beheading and can stomach it…its extremely graphic and I warn all of you who may have a weak stomach not to watch: go to [www.ogrish.com](http://www.ogrish.com)…witness a beheading and then tell me we should pussyfoot with these bastardly terrorists. Wait…so what is a good way to die? What’s a good way to kill someone? Should we play a video of someone napalmed in Vietnam and then use that as a reason that the USA is nothing but a bunch of savages to be destroyed? -Joe, agrees with the 13 suggestion ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/44 "2004-10-08T16:14:11Z")
> [@MadSam](#): > > However, your (antechinus) response of working with the United Nations suggests that you are not well read…or much to naive to understand and deal with this problem…Me thinks that you would rather avoid dealing with the problem by letting others fight your wars. And your knowledge of history is what exactly? There have been IRA terrorists from Ireland bombing English civilians for most of this century. Some of their funds have come from the USA. Does that make America a terrorist supporting nation? The English first invaded Ireland about 900 years ago. There have been unpleasant deaths on both sides since then. Several hundred years ago a bunch of colonists rebelled against their lawful Monarch, over taxation representation in Parliament. Were they freedom fighters or terrorists? Why do you think the UN was set up? What is its purpose? What authority does the US have to be in Iraq? If an Iraqi attacks a foreign soldier occupying his country, is he a freedom fighter or a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/45 "2004-10-08T16:24:22Z")
> [@MadSam](#): > > So much fuss about whether we should have gone into Iraq or not. > Terrorists exist world wide. I maintain that even if Israel was destroyed, terrorism would continue to flourish. Please elaborate on the bridges between these thooughts. What is the relationship between the controversy surrounding the Iraq invasion, the near ubiquitousness of terrorists, and the desctruction of Israel. It’s clear that you’re implying that terrorism’s not predicated on the existence of the state of Israel. But how is that related to the controversy surrounding the invasion of Iraq. > [@MadSam](#): > > I believe that after the election, Bush will send in hundreds of thousands of troops and wipe the insurgents out. I’m not so sure that there’re “hundreds of thousands of troops” available. Most of our armed forces are already engaged in vital duties. I’m sure that a sizable force, perhaps even in the tens of thousands could be brought to bear upon any particular point in Iraq. But hundreds of thousands seems out of the ball park, prob’ly by a factor of ten. > [@MadSam](#): > > Will that stop the terrorists? It’s not clear who you’re talking about. Would you please elaborate? > [@MadSam](#): > > Must we catch Osama Bin Laden to stop it? Depends on what exactly you mean by “it”? If you mean the Iraqi insugency, then I’d say that catching UbL would have no perceptable impact on the Iraqi insurgency other than to cause a brief spike in attention and sympathy given to UbL by various patricipants in the insurgency. Many Iraqis active in the insurgency believe that they are defending their homeland from foreign invaders who are occupying their country. This rationale for fighting exists independently of UbL’s life and freedom. If you mean something else, then would you please go into greater detail? > [@MadSam](#): > > or can we stop terrorism at all. Your opinions please. We can stop some terrorists and prevent some terrorism. But the nature of free society is that it always remain vulnerable to the actions of it’s free citizens. The pressure release valve of free societies is that members have an effective non-violent means of effecting change. Violence ensues more readily where people are more readily convinced that they lack any effective non-violent means of efecting change. But even in free societies there’re bound to be born some outliers who’re prone to such violence regardless of their environment (Unabomber, Eric Rudolph, McVeigh, etc.) Terrorism from international sources is another matter. It just doesn’t seem worth it to completely secure ourselves from terrorist attacks from international sources. There’s an optimal level of security measures. There is a point of diminishing returns. For example, we could immediately decide to inspect every cargo of every ship that enters US waters. However, not enough people think that the added expense of manpower and wealth lost due to the delays is worth the benefit of completely securing our waters. A nuclear device in a shipping container on an inbound freighter could do some damage even if it were not all the way in port. > [@MadSam](#): > > To 2nd message in this thread > If 20,000 of people in the USA were to die from another terrorist attack, would you continue to be a pacifist? The author did not imply pacifism. > [@MadSam](#): > > I believe we went into Iraq to establish our presence in the Middle East to keep a geographical watch on Syria, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen as Israel was the only sliver of democracy in the Middle East. Given the “enduring camps” and the very large US embassy planned for Iraq, I’d say that this was included in someone thinking. > [@MadSam](#): > > Turning off the OPEC oil > Paul Fitzroy: I hear you. But practically we still are 10 to 15 years away from hydrogen powered cars…Where is energy for automobiles going to come from until then? Where do we get oil until another source of energy is produced at a cost we can all afford? We could’ve allocated the same funds that we have allocated to Iraq to funding alternative energy research. Think about it. With just $100bil we could’ve given 1000 universities grants of $100mil. As it is the Budget office expects we won’t get out of Iraq for less than $500bil. That’d be even more universities or even more money in grants for alternative energy research. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > He made the point that US forces in Iraq should be conducting operations at street level (‘that’s what they’re paid to do’ was one of his arguments) rather than from the sky. His implicit message was: ‘More soldiers must be prepared to die’. This argument’s been being made for a while. The idea is that these types of operations (“street level”) mean less “collateral damage.” The less collateral damage the fewer non-insurgents will decide it’s worth it to become insurgents. But the political price is obvious. If Team Bush was unsure whether we would be willing to bear this sort of burden at the outset, they’re by now certain that the electorate won’t be willing to do so now. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/46 "2004-10-09T03:42:43Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Where would he get these troops from, anyway? Same place posters find these questionable questions to questions the SDMBer’s. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/47 "2004-10-09T14:47:25Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > Same place posters find these questionable questions to questions the SDMBer’s. No, I checked up my ass this morning, there were only a few hundred US troops in there. That’s a far cry from hundreds of thousands. This “questionable question” certainly seems like a legitimate concern. Could you please explain why it is not? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/48 "2004-10-09T16:29:42Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > There is a strong and persuasive link between the Iraq and Al Q. It is plain that once this link was established the US inevitably had to take military action against Iraq. > > The connection is irrebutable and material. **MadSam** is far from alone in identifying the connection and supporting military action on that basis. > > Of course the link is not rational. It is a narrative. The administration has told the story in such a way that Iraq is the chapter subsequent to Sept 11. And lots of the US population has bought it. > > Like **MadSam** they accept the administration’s line that the US **had to** attack _someone_. And hell, one A-rab is as good as another. Bingo. I was among those who trusted people I felt ought to know the truth, even if it couldn’t be made public for security reasons, in saying that that connection existed. **Where in Hell is it?** If it actually did exist, why is there **no** credible evidence that it did? Politically, it would de-fuse about half the opposition to Mr. Bush if it were revealed – so why hasn’t he ordered it done? Militarily and diplomatically, it would bring an overwhelming chunk of the world to our side – so why hasn’t he ordered it done? Ethically, it’s the right thing to do, to demonstrate that this hot-button war was indeed morally justified – so why hasn’t he ordered it done? Very likely, because there **was no such evidence** – or intelligence indications that were misread in the direction he wanted them misread – and therefore he flat-out lied to get us into a war that would benefit some of his corporate political supporters, at the cost of American lives. For that, he’ll have to find forgiveness somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/49 "2004-10-10T00:36:33Z")
My initial question expressed in a different way will be preceded by the following: Based on the initial intelligence provided to Bush that there were WMD, I approve of Bush’s actions. At that time there is NO evidence that I am aware that Bush knew otherwise. I , personally, would be strongly against the invasion of Iraq ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/50 "2004-10-10T00:37:41Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Oh, and your Arabs never promote racism, Sevastopol. Not like the Arab Muslims who are slaughtering Black Muslims in the Sudan (and I mean savagely slaughtering them with machetes for no reason at all, not bulldozing some houses and building a wall.) > > Why aren’t you protesting the plethora of savage barbaric acts being perpetrated by Arab Muslims all over the world? Why are people so incenced at Israel in general when more Muslims are being killed by their fellow Muslims than by any Israeli actions? Because we aren’t actively funding the sudanese slaughters with billions of our tax dollars every year. ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/51 "2004-10-10T00:48:27Z")
hit the wrong button by accident, sorry…Bush should have stated he would not have declared war on Iraq at that time if HE KNEW that there were no weapons of mass destruction. MY point in the OP was that 99% of our discussions have been should we have invaded Iraq or not? I felt and still do that we should concentrate on what to do about world terrorism. The Iraq situation is a done deal, like it or not…I believe both Bush and Kerry agree that we must remain there. Again, my point is what is the best way of dealing with the fundamentalist Islamic individuals who are involved actively in the terror conducted in the WTC, Israel, Sudan, and elsewhere. Should we put our head in the sand? I maintain that the UN will not support critical thinking on this question. They haven’t to date. I personally “do not have a plan” as Kerry does for just about everything. That is why I asked the SDMB members for their suggestions ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284/52 "2004-10-10T06:06:24Z")
I pushed the wrong button on my last comment and that took away my concerns which apparently I did not make clear. My point was to say that we ARE in Iraq. Both Kerry and Bush both agree that we have to stay there and finish that which we started. If Bush believed at the time the US invaded Iraq that there WERE WMD in Iraq I can understand why he did what he did. I see no reason to invade Iraq if intelligence thought there WERE NO weapons of mass destruction. What I was saying is that we ARE there whether we think the invasion was justified or not. Terrorism exists more than ever worldwide in my opinion. The United Nations thus far has proved to be emasculated as to action in Sudan and there is no question in mind that more countries than not in the United Nations are anti Israel to start with. With the above in mind, what would YOU do if you were President of the US to handle the terrorist problem if anything? Kerry has " A PLAN" for just about everthing from foreign policy to internal problems…It appears that most of you are pro Kerry. If so, what would you do or what is it that you think Kerry should do to deal with terrorism that Bush is not doing? In the world’s largest nutshell, thats what I was trying to say in the original thread. Comments please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-israel-was-decimated-terrorism-would-still-exist/265284.md?page=2)