# "If it saves only one life" - time to shut down the NYC subway? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805 "2013-01-10T23:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/101 "2013-01-16T21:19:44Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Nonsense. No one is suggesting that we return to the state of nature along with disarming. The gun might have been the great equalizer in a world without strong political and legal institutions. And they’re still the great equalizer in a world with strong political and legal institutions. The police can’t always get there in time. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/102 "2013-01-16T21:48:40Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’m not seeing any problems that it would solve. People who wish to go about killing people will simply come up with another way to do so. That’s fine. No one seriously thinks that disarmament will end all murder. People who want to kill other people will do so whether we have laws, police, or any other inhibiting factor. So what? > [@](#): > > I have no fear but I also am realistic about how much the police can do to protect me as an individual. If nothing else, I feel it is my responsibility to take care of myself as much as I can, and not rely on anyone else to do so. You’re not afraid but you are looking for protection. That doesn’t really hold together. I don’t think the police can do much to protect me in some kind of short but violent situation, but that’s part of the risk I take when I leave the house every day. > [@](#): > > What does it bar? Gun ownership as a “right” makes the entire public discourse toxic. Our society regulates lots of other important commodities, but none of them have the same result because owning a car isn’t a RIGHT, owning a mortgage isn’t a RIGHT, buying cigarettes isn’t a RIGHT, etc. Yet we don’t take all of these things away, we just regulate them sensibly, though there is plenty of room for disagreement about the particulars. If gun ownership weren’t a right, then we have a shot at trying to do the same thing. States end up taking perverse end-runs around national jurisprudence. The current scheme of gun control is bizarre, drastically inconsistent across states, and is frequently abused by people on all sides of the issue. > [@](#): > > Well, there 330,000 people in my town… :D. Then your town has the same population as my state senate district. My district is maybe 10-15 square miles, tops. > [@](#): > > But, with that experience, how in the world could you believe that more laws/police are going to change the issues with people who feel they can or must rob/attack/kill others? No matter what, there are always going to be people like that out there. Then how in the world could you believe that letting guns proliferate will change the issues with people who feel they can or must rob/attack/kill others? In my town, getting a gun is all but impossible. Our murder rate happens to be extraordinarily low. So either we have people here who are less murderous to begin with or something about the way we run this place affects how many people get killed. > [@](#): > > I was also talking about actually living with seriously poor people whose attitude is the world owes them and/or there is no reason they should work for anything. Hell, I live in a “mixed neighborhood” now and bump into shit every time I hit the road, but living with it creates a whole new awareness of how some people think. When I see poor, possibly entitled people, my first response is not to want to own a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/103 "2013-01-16T21:53:21Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Then your town has the sameIn my town, getting a gun is all but impossible. Our murder rate happens to be extraordinarily low. . I’d have to say that based upon your profile location, the murder rate there seems _extremely_ high. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/104 "2013-01-16T22:05:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I’d have to say that based upon your profile location, the murder rate there seems _extremely_ high. 😛 Good one. But clearly, it didn’t kill me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/105 "2013-01-16T23:56:54Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > The objective is not to solve some specific social problem but to create a just world. It’s the same rationale as wanting to ban all forms of abortion. In the anti-gun vision of the world, people just don’t have guns. Preventing childhood fatalities is an additional rationale that further supports the justice of the policy. The difference between guns and abortion is that anyone who voluntarily disarms while other people have guns is a sucker. So everyone has to disarm to achieve this just world, not just the people who don’t want to own guns themselves. This makes it somewhat different than, say, banning alcohol, hot dogs, or private pools. > > ETA: Just to avoid ambiguity, this is not my position. I am just giving the argument the way I think it goes. A couple problems with your logic: 1. You say the objective is to “create a just world”. So how exactly does repealing the 2nd Amendment create a just world? 😕 2. If, indeed, your objective is truly to create a just world, then I can think of a lot more cost effective ways of getting closer to that goal than spending shiploads of money to change the Constitution. (How much do you think it would cost to repeal the 2nd Amendment? Don’t you think that money could be MUCH more wisely spent in other ways that could help to create a just world?) \*But you do get bonus points for at least acknowledging that your objective is really not to save lives…altho your stated objective/remedy has me puzzled. > [@Maeglin](#): > > Gun ownership as a “right” makes the entire public discourse toxic. Our society regulates lots of other important commodities, but none of them have the same result because owning a car isn’t a RIGHT, owning a mortgage isn’t a RIGHT, buying cigarettes isn’t a RIGHT, etc. Yet we don’t take all of these things away, we just regulate them sensibly, though there is plenty of room for disagreement about the particulars. If gun ownership weren’t a right, then we have a shot at trying to do the same thing. > . You are aware that “rights” are indeed regulated, are you not?? Free speech is a “right”, but can you go into a crowded theater and yell “Fire!”? The answer of course is NO, because although you have a right to free speech, that right is regulated. There are many, MANY ways that rights are regulated, so your position, once again, has me puzzled. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/106 "2013-01-17T00:08:39Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Good one. But clearly, it didn’t kill me. 🙂 Have you met my distant cousin, Wladislaus Dragwlya, _vaivoda partium Transalpinarum_? He could give you a few _tips_ and _point_ers. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/107 "2013-01-17T00:46:07Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > A couple problems with your logic: You are making inferences without warrant. > [@](#): > > 1. You say the objective is to “create a just world”. So how exactly does repealing the 2nd Amendment create a just world? 😕 [/quote] The first best solution is universal voluntary disarmament. This is obviously unlikely for a variety of reasons, one of which is because people claim that they have a right to own guns and will not suffer their rights to be abridged. The second best solution is to regulate firearms sensibly and rationally. At the moment, the gun manufacturers’ lobby rejects any and all efforts at rational regulation by characterizing such regulation as an infringement on Constitutionally-guaranteed rights. Rights don’t come from a higher power; they are just an articulation of claims US citizens can make on their government. So the first step to neutralizing the gun lobby and proceeding with regulation is to remove the second amendment. > [@](#): > > 1. If, indeed, your objective is truly to create a just world, then I can think of a lot more cost effective ways of getting closer to that goal than spending shiploads of money to change the Constitution. (How much do you think it would cost to repeal the 2nd Amendment? Don’t you think that money could be MUCH more wisely spent in other ways that could help to create a just world?) It would cost a great deal, and the people who feel strongly about it would bear this cost. I cannot think of a fairer allocation. You might be able to think of cheaper alternatives in line with your personal preferences, but that is neither here nor there. It might be cheaper for the NRA to bribe pro-gun control advocates instead of spending ghastly sums of money on lobbying efforts that might fail, too. > [@](#): > > \*But you do get bonus points for at least acknowledging that your objective is really not to save lives…altho your stated objective/remedy has me puzzled. There are lots of ways to save lives. There is nothing stopping us from doing all of them. This happens to be a timely and topical one at the moment, so the time is right for a push to action. > [@](#): > > You are aware that “rights” are indeed regulated, are you not?? Free speech is a “right”, but can you go into a crowded theater and yell “Fire!”? The answer of course is NO, because although you have a right to free speech, that right is regulated. There are many, MANY ways that rights are regulated, so your position, once again, has me puzzled. That’s because you are not reading the words on the page. The problem is not that rights can’t be regulated but that the **public discourse about guns** is made utterly toxic by issues of rights. Other activist organizations respond to any perceived infringement on other rights as an intolerable imposition, too. Consider the ACLU and NARAL. But a large swath of the country thinks that these organizations are disreputable as it is and none are backed by industry groups like the NRA. We also have the burden of some unfortunate gun-related jurisprudence to overcome. So while guns are a right, supported by a small and highly organized industry with deep links with the government, and appeal to a base with the rhetoric of rights, we aren’t going to get anywhere. I want to erode this organization’s appeal, so mobilizing popular support to excise the second amendment looks like the path ahead. Piecemeal, bogus gun control that has to skirt around SC jurisprudence and that galvanizes the supporters of the NRA is just not the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/108 "2013-01-17T14:44:03Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > The second best solution is to regulate firearms sensibly and rationally. At the moment, the gun manufacturers’ lobby rejects any and all efforts at rational regulation And here you hit on my third big problem with the current push: so far there have not been any efforts that were sensible, or, frankly, rational. If this were about swimming pools, the equivalent would be to ban new pool construction of anything deeper than 2’. It would take a long, long time, at best, before the number of children drowning would go down. So we have a solution that doesn’t fix the problem, proposed by people who will not bear the cost, justified with " if it saves only one life" . This is what upsets me. Currently it is about guns, but we’ve seen it before. Like the MADD initiative to lower the legal alcohol limit further, to solve the problem of repeat drunk drivers. Now I don’t drive when I’ve had anything to drink, and I am ambivalent about guns, but the rethoric and logical fallacies disturb me. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/109 "2013-01-18T00:29:31Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > That’s fine. No one seriously thinks that disarmament will end all murder. People who want to kill other people will do so whether we have laws, police, or any other inhibiting factor. So what? So, that doesn’t jive with the earlier position, that people who want to outlaw guns are looking for a “just” world. So again, I ask - are these people delusional? How could there be anything near a “just” world if we still have people who want to kill other people? Gun deaths are a symptom, not the disease. > [@](#): > > You’re not afraid but you are looking for protection. No, not really. I’m older, have arthritis and am female. In my younger days I could easily (or at least easier) deal with threats without needing a firearm, but these days not so much. I’m also not interested in having to deal with a threat in any sort of up close way, so having a gun about takes care of that as well. I am not particularly concerned with my day to day life, but since I drive all over the western states with a few trips into the midwest, and end up in less than desirable places, sometimes in the middle of the night, I’d be a fool if I didn’t take any measures to make sure I could protect myself should something arise. That said, in almost 40 years of driving, I’ve only had to display a firearm twice and one of those was at home. > [@](#): > > Gun ownership as a “right” makes the entire public discourse toxic. Our society regulates lots of other important commodities, but none of them have the same result because owning a car isn’t a RIGHT, owning a mortgage isn’t a RIGHT, buying cigarettes isn’t a RIGHT, etc. Yet we don’t take all of these things away, we just regulate them sensibly, though there is plenty of room for disagreement about the particulars. If gun ownership weren’t a right, then we have a shot at trying to do the same thing. States end up taking perverse end-runs around national jurisprudence. The current scheme of gun control is bizarre, drastically inconsistent across states, and is frequently abused by people on all sides of the issue. Hmm, OK, I can see this. Tho nothing is a RIGHT no matter what is written down - felons are not allowed to own guns are they? > [@](#): > > Then how in the world could you believe that letting guns proliferate will change the issues with people who feel they can or must rob/attack/kill others? In my town, getting a gun is all but impossible. Our murder rate happens to be extraordinarily low. So either we have people here who are less murderous to begin with or something about the way we run this place affects how many people get killed. Where in the world do you live that it is all but impossible to get a gun? I can’t think of any place in the US where I couldn’t just go buy a gun. > [@](#): > > When I see poor, possibly entitled people, my first response is not to want to own a firearm. Nope, but when you end up living in among the result of that, you end up having to come up with ways to hold on to anything you own. It’s a whole other thread, but far too many poor- really poor - people are not interested in working hard and making their way up the ladder. They want it all “fixed” and fixed _now_. Other than winning the Lotto, the only ways they can do that are illegal. And generally violent. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/110 "2013-01-18T01:33:19Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Where in the world do you live that it is all but impossible to get a gun? I can’t think of any place in the US where I couldn’t just go buy a gun. He won’t say, and I can’t think of any large USA metro area where you have a low murder rate and can’t buy a gun. It is very difficult to buy a gun in Wash DC, but they have a rather high crime rate. So, perhaps Oz? Narnia? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/111 "2013-01-18T01:34:33Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Good one. But clearly, it didn’t kill me. 🙂 Care to tell us where you do live? In other words, cite? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/112 "2013-01-18T01:37:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He won’t say, and I can’t think of any large USA metro area where you have a low murder rate and can’t buy a gun. It is very difficult to buy a gun in Wash DC, but they have a rather high crime rate. > > So, perhaps Oz? Narnia? Oh? It’s a secret? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/113 "2013-01-18T04:50:31Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Oh? It’s a secret? He’s being coy, and the only reason i can think of is that there is no such US city. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/114 "2013-01-18T05:36:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He’s being coy, and the only reason i can think of is that there is no such US city. Even without coyness, I can’t imagine there is any significantly sized city in the US that has severe restrictions on gun ownership and a low murder rate. I do think he must live overseas. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/115 "2013-01-19T16:39:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, those naughty naughty Supreme Court Justices- how _dare_ they do a “_creative reading_” on the 2nd Ad of the Bill of Rights! :eek: What gives them the right to do this? :rolleyes: > [District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller) I thought about just empty-quoting this, but, you might like to know that this _isn’t at all_ what I was thinking of. Yes, the Scotes have the final meaningful interpretation of the law. No shit, Sherlock. Even if the bottom 11th percentile (I’m looking at you, Scalia) writes some superficially silly shit about a matter of law, it is worth at least a very serious look. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/116 "2013-01-20T05:11:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Even without coyness, I can’t imagine there is any significantly sized city in the US that has severe restrictions on gun ownership and a low murder rate. I do think he must live overseas. I live in Manhattan. New York County. Good luck buying a legal handgun in my city.Crime is low. Draw your own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/117 "2013-01-20T17:56:51Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I live in Manhattan. New York County. Good luck buying a legal handgun in my city.Crime is low. Draw your own conclusions. Violent crime in NYC is pretty square in the middle, same with murder: > **[List of United States cities by crime rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate)** > > The following table of United States cities by crime rate is based on Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) statistics from 2019 for the 100 most populous cities in America that have reported data to the FBI UCR system. > The population numbers are based on U.S. Census estimates for the year end. The number of murders includes nonnegligent manslaughter. This list is based on the reporting. In most cases, the city and the reporting agency are identical. However, in some cas... ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/118 "2013-01-20T18:05:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Violent crime in NYC is pretty square in the middle, same with murder: > [List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate) That’s only if you look at the median and compare it uncritically to cities with, say, 10-20% of its population. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/119 "2013-01-21T00:41:32Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I live in Manhattan. New York County. Good luck buying a legal handgun in my city.Crime is low. Draw your own conclusions. Your cite doesn’t work. I googled buying a shotgun in New York county and found you could do so without permit. ---
**Author:** ![sylmar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@sylmar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sylmar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805/120 "2013-01-21T22:55:14Z")
Read for … at least comprehension curlcoat. Maeglin said _handgun_, not shotgun. And the violent crime dip in NYC after disarmament has been pretty well documented. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-saves-only-one-life-time-to-shut-down-the-nyc-subway/646805.md?page=7)