# If it wasnt for Columbus... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164 "2016-10-10T18:04:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/1 "2016-10-10T18:04:31Z")
How long do you think it would have taken Europe to rediscover the Americas? I’m no historian but it seems to me that others would also have tried sailing eastward with the hope of discovering new lands or passageways to the east. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/2 "2016-10-10T18:12:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > How long do you think it would have taken Europe to rediscover the Americas? > I’m no historian but it seems to me that others would also have tried sailing eastward with the hope of discovering new lands or passageways to the east. You mean sailing westward? ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/3 "2016-10-10T18:14:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > How long do you think it would have taken Europe to rediscover the Americas? > I’m no historian but it seems to me that others would also have tried sailing eastward with the hope of discovering new lands or passageways to the east. Oh, absolutely. The first circumnavigation of the Earth, by Ferdinand Magellan, was completed just 30 years after the discovery of America so it’s not like nobody else was capable of seafaring. Whether his expedition would have been financed as easily without that earlier discovery is a different matter, but the capability was clearly there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/4 "2016-10-10T18:20:51Z")
1-5 decades. Maybe longer if they tried to keep it secret. (Some fishermen may have actually discovered America in search of cod, but kept it secret.) But by no means a century. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/5 "2016-10-10T18:26:03Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > How long do you think it would have taken Europe to rediscover the Americas? A couple of decades at most. Cabral backed into Brazil probably accidentally in 1500 while bound for India. By then the Treaty of Tordesillas was in place, which gave him impetus to explore this area that lay in Portugal’s sphere. But even without that motivator it still would have just been a matter of time before somebody enterprising figured out they didn’t have another Ascension island on their hands. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/6 "2016-10-10T18:29:46Z")
One of the reasons that Columbus succeeded was that he was an idiot. Columbus incorrectly calculated that the Earth was much smaller than it actually is, and just got lucky that he ran into this previously unknown land mass before he ran out of food. The smart men who could correctly calculate the size of the earth knew that it was too big (the correct size of the earth had been worked out at least as far back as Eratosthenes in the 3rd century). The smart men knew that if they tried to sail west, they would run out of food before they reached the most eastern known lands. So the smart men didn’t try sailing west because they knew it wouldn’t work. They had no idea that there was a land mass with plenty of food on it halfway along their intended journey. It wasn’t that no one wanted to find a better trade route. It was just that the people who really knew what they were doing didn’t think it was possible, so they didn’t try. This was one of those cases where it took an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/7 "2016-10-10T18:35:52Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > One of the reasons that Columbus succeeded was that he was an idiot. Columbus incorrectly calculated that the Earth was much smaller than it actually is, and just got lucky that he ran into this previously unknown land mass before he ran out of food. > > The smart men who could correctly calculate the size of the earth knew that it was too big (the correct size of the earth had been worked out at least as far back as Eratosthenes in the 3rd century). The smart men knew that if they tried to sail west, they would run out of food before they reached the most eastern known lands. So the smart men didn’t try sailing west because they knew it wouldn’t work. They had no idea that there was a land mass with plenty of food on it halfway along their intended journey. > > It wasn’t that no one wanted to find a better trade route. It was just that the people who really knew what they were doing didn’t think it was possible, so they didn’t try. > > This was one of those cases where it took an idiot. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/8 "2016-10-10T18:36:43Z")
Eight years exactly, in 1500, when Pedro Alvares Cabral accidentally discovered Brazil after being blown off course while trying to round Africa. It has been suggested that Cabral deliberately sailed far out because Columbus’s voyages suggested there might be land to the west. However, the Portuguese vessels were already using the [volta de mar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar) to facilitate their journeys across the South Atlantic, meaning that it was just a matter of time before one was blown to Brazil. Likewise, there is evidence that fishermen were already exploiting the Grand Banks off Newfoundland before Columbus’s voyage. Although John Cabot’s voyage to North America in 1497 was prompted by news of Columbus’s discoveries, it’s quite likely other navigators might have tried this route by the early 1500s. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/9 "2016-10-10T18:37:02Z")
tbh, I don’t even think the sailing was that huge a deal - it was known there was land there, reading latitudes was not an issue (unlike longitudes). The real issue was funding the voyage, voyages in his case as he screwed up the first quite quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/10 "2016-10-10T18:37:55Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > Cite? Pretty much any article on Columbus. This is pretty well known to anyone with any knowledge on the subject. From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Columbus had sought an audience from the monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile, who had united several kingdoms in the Iberian Peninsula by marrying and were ruling together. On 1 May 1486, permission having been granted, Columbus presented his plans to Queen Isabella, who, in turn, referred it to a committee. After the passing of much time, the savants of Spain, like their counterparts in Portugal, replied that Columbus had grossly underestimated the distance to Asia. They pronounced the idea impractical and advised their Royal Highnesses to pass on the proposed venture. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/11 "2016-10-10T18:39:31Z")
John Cabot said to North America for England in 1497. He (an Italian) was certainly inspired by the success of Columbus, but he did use Bristol sailors for crew. They and Portuguese and Basque fishing boats had already been far out into the Atlantic, perhaps even fishing the Grand Banks off Newfoundland. Whether purposeful or accidental, I’d speculate someone would have hit land in the New World by 1512. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/12 "2016-10-10T18:40:53Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > How long do you think it would have taken Europe to rediscover the Americas? > I’m no historian but it seems to me that others would also have tried sailing eastward with the hope of discovering new lands or passageways to the east. Oh, it would have happened sooner or later. Probably before 1600. Doesn’t make me like Cristobal any better. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/13 "2016-10-10T18:40:57Z")
How does reading latitudes help you? And I’ve seen it suggested that Columbus was not in fact an idiot: He might have heard from those cod fishers of land to the west, and that’s what motivated him to make the attempt, because he knew that there was land there. He was still mistaken about just _what_ land it was, but once you know the land is there that doesn’t matter as much. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/14 "2016-10-10T18:44:49Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Pretty much any article on Columbus. This is pretty well known to anyone with any knowledge on the subject. > > From Wikipedia: I’m no Columbus defender, but who was right and who was wrong. As I recall, the Spanish royalty got plenty wealthy off of Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/15 "2016-10-10T18:45:17Z")
As much as I hate to cite wikipedia, this is accurate: > [@](#): > > Columbus therefore estimated the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan to be about 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km, or 2,300 statute miles). The true figure is now known to be vastly larger: about 20,000 km.[33] No ship in the 15th century could have carried enough food and fresh water for such a long voyage, and the dangers involved in navigating through the uncharted ocean would have been formidable. Most European navigators reasonably concluded that a westward voyage from Europe to Asia was unfeasible This document has a good description of how Columbus arrived at his wrong calculation of the Earth’s size and all of the errors he made while doing so (pdf warning): > **[nph-iarticle\_query](https://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1975QJRAS..16..152F&defaultprint=YES&filetype=.pdf)** Without Columbus being a lucky idiot, I can’t imagine anyone willingly sailing west unless they similarly had a very bad misconception about the size of the Earth or had developed boats that could carry a heck of a lot more food. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/16 "2016-10-10T18:47:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How does reading latitudes help you? > > And I’ve seen it suggested that Columbus was not in fact an idiot: He might have heard from those cod fishers of land to the west, and that’s what motivated him to make the attempt, because he knew that there was land there. He was still mistaken about just _what_ land it was, but once you know the land is there that doesn’t matter as much. It’s possible that Columbus had heard something about it, but he definitely cooked his figures to make it plausible that he might be able to reach the Far East in a reasonable time. But if he knew of land in the North Atlantic, one wonders why he didn’t attempt that route. He had evidently already been as far as Iceland. Of course, if the word was already out there it makes it even more certain that the Americas would have been discovered in a few years anyway. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/17 "2016-10-10T18:50:51Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > I’m no Columbus defender, but who was right and who was wrong. As I recall, the Spanish royalty got plenty wealthy off of Columbus. Columbus wasn’t right. Fortunately for the Spanish, he was wrong in such a way that they got tremendously wealthy from his mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/18 "2016-10-10T18:53:40Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > I’m no Columbus defender, but who was right and who was wrong. As I recall, the Spanish royalty got plenty wealthy off of Columbus. Columbus was the luckiest crackpot in history. The experts were nearly exactly right about the actual distance to Asia, and Columbus was completely wrong. Columbus was lucky in that the Americas turned out to be pretty much where he calculated Asia to be. The Spanish royalty didn’t make all that much off of Columbus, and in fact they fired him after a few years. The West Indies were a disappointment, since they didn’t produce all that much gold, nor the spices and silks of the Far East. Spain only began to get large quantities of gold from the Americas with the conquest of the Aztec and Inca Empires, long after Columbus’s death. (Incidentally, Columbus missed a chance to discover the Aztec Empire himself in 1502 when he sailed south instead of north from Honduras because of his mistaken ideas about the geography of Central America based on his theory he was in the Far East.) ---
**Author:** ![Lightbrite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3e96dc/32.png) [@Lightbrite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightbrite)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/19 "2016-10-10T18:54:24Z")
It probably would have happened eventually, but part of the reason that Colombus was able to go on his voyage was because of significant funding from Ferdinand & Isabella of Spain (which had extraordinary wealth at the time). If I remember correctly, he had tried to secure funding from other countries in Western Europe, but was turned down. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/20 "2016-10-10T19:00:31Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Columbus wasn’t right. Fortunately for the Spanish, he was wrong in such a way that they got tremendously wealthy from his mistake. Slightly. How many more miles north and he hits Florida? Hell, if San Salvador wasn’t there (not looking at a map) he might of hit Florida. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164.md?page=2)